Trump Trump Trump

Old Jan 11th 2022, 5:12 pm
  #811  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
I will agree that people stormed the Capitol. For what reason only they can explain as, unlike some posters, I don't intend to speak for them.

I accept that the US justice system has tried, and will continue to try, some of them. I have no idea as to whether those charges relate(d) to assault/criminal damage/burglary (from an English perspective as I have no idea what the US equivalent is) but I believe that no such charges have been levelled against Trump. Above, I stated that it will be interesting to see what happens once the current investigation finishes and what evidence is turned up. Time will tell.

I do note that you have not been able to show what precise parts of Trump's speech caused you to come to your own conclusion. Is there any particular reason for that?
Trump's speech has to be taken in the whole. He's speaking to a fanatical mob of supporters and he's stoking up resentment about a stolen election and the need for wrongs to be righted. He's not naive enough to explicitly demand or suggest that the mob storm the Capitol. Read the speech and draw your own conclusions, not as a lawyer seeking to defend someone, but as a MAGA hat wearing patriot who has been listen to two months of invective about how the election has been stolen. Read between the lines, as that's the connection between the rally speech and the attack of the Capitol.

Only a protestor can assert his personal reason for breaking through security and seeking members of Congress. However, what do you think was the reason for those most violent and determined ? Does disrupting the confirmation seem a possibility or was the whole episode only about selfies? What seems more likely to you?
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Old Jan 11th 2022, 9:07 pm
  #812  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Trump's speech has to be taken in the whole. He's speaking to a fanatical mob of supporters and he's stoking up resentment about a stolen election and the need for wrongs to be righted. He's not naive enough to explicitly demand or suggest that the mob storm the Capitol. Read the speech and draw your own conclusions, not as a lawyer seeking to defend someone, but as a MAGA hat wearing patriot who has been listen to two months of invective about how the election has been stolen. Read between the lines, as that's the connection between the rally speech and the attack of the Capitol.

Only a protestor can assert his personal reason for breaking through security and seeking members of Congress. However, what do you think was the reason for those most violent and determined ? Does disrupting the confirmation seem a possibility or was the whole episode only about selfies? What seems more likely to you?
I accept that disrupting the confirmation may have been a motive. That is a far cry from overthrowing the government.

I've listened to all 70 minutes of his speech and, as I am not a MAGA hat wearing patriot, I can't put myself in their shoes or understand why they acted the way they did, as it makes no sense to me.
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Old Jan 12th 2022, 2:59 am
  #813  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
I accept that disrupting the confirmation may have been a motive. That is a far cry from overthrowing the government.

I've listened to all 70 minutes of his speech and, as I am not a MAGA hat wearing patriot, I can't put myself in their shoes or understand why they acted the way they did, as it makes no sense to me.
Maybe we're stuck on semantics here. Since up thread you mentioned that you were involved in defending against an insurrection (Northern Ireland ??) you may view the marauding protestors as un-serious threat.

I don't totally dismiss you scepticism or reservations, but I do think that the momentum was very much toward interfering with a democratic result. And in the context of the USA, which prides itself on constitutional integrity, that level of interference constitutes an attempt to overthrow the government.

Violent and deadly struggle is not a condition of immense political change. If you look back to the Soviet Union, it's collapse was brought about by some signed documents of those in power at the time.
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Old Jan 12th 2022, 1:30 pm
  #814  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Maybe we're stuck on semantics here. Since up thread you mentioned that you were involved in defending against an insurrection (Northern Ireland ??) you may view the marauding protestors as un-serious threat.

I don't totally dismiss you scepticism or reservations, but I do think that the momentum was very much toward interfering with a democratic result. And in the context of the USA, which prides itself on constitutional integrity, that level of interference constitutes an attempt to overthrow the government.

Violent and deadly struggle is not a condition of immense political change. If you look back to the Soviet Union, it's collapse was brought about by some signed documents of those in power at the time.
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Not NI, although I was there, insurrections in which the UK was attempting to overthrow the then government. As I am sure you are aware, it isn't only the US that becomes involved in such things.

I don't agree that the politicians in the US give a crap about constitutional integrity, as can be seen by the current discussions regarding reforms to voting. It will be interesting to see if the government's senators uphold constitutional integrity. It appears that most will agree with what Biden appears to want but a few holdouts may result with him not getting what he wants.

FWIW, I can't see any reason why both sides would be against allowing as many eligible voters to be able to cast votes, in a way that guarantees that only those that are eligible to vote can do so. I don't understand why, when the rest of the world requires those eligible to vote to prove that they are eligible, when the Democrats appear to oppose this, or why the polling stations cannot be kept open for times/days, so at to ensure that the maximum numbers are able to vote, which the Republicans appear to oppose (I appreciate that this is a gross oversimplification). I appreciate why each side holds their position, but I fail to see how anyone can find either sides' position credible. But that's US politics for you: Refuse everything the other side says, even if it is perfectly sensible.

I accept that regimes can be changed with minimal casualties but I am confident that you will also accept that that is not the norm. If the media wish to whip up that Trump incited his supporters to overthrow the government, rather than simply accept that a large group of people took some action, likely couldn't believe how easy it was to enter the Capitol and then did so, they will have to come up with evidence that supports that narrative. As I have stated, I don't believe that they have to date but I accept that that may change once the investigation has run its course.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 8:06 pm
  #815  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

11 people charged with seditious conspiracy over Jan 6
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 9:26 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
11 people charged with seditious conspiracy over Jan 6
Stewart Rhodes, the founder and leader of the far-right Oath Keepers militia group, has been arrested and charged with seditious conspiracy in the 6 January attack on the US Capitol, the Department of Justice said on Thursday.

Ten others face the same charge, which carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison.
Leader of Oath Keepers militia group faces sedition charge over Capitol attack

Yes, but that can't be serious can it. There weren't enough people injured or killed.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 9:56 pm
  #817  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Leader of Oath Keepers militia group faces sedition charge over Capitol attack

Yes, but that can't be serious can it. There weren't enough people injured or killed.
And the investigation hasn't run it's course yet, either.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 6:42 am
  #818  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

CNN was commenting the fact that during the riot/insurrection, Trump himself said nothing for a whole two hours. As the sitting president, and as someone asserting that he was re-elected, surely a higher level of leadership is requisite. A simple tweet to "stand down" and clarify that he objected to entering the Capitol is all that would be required. Omission of which speaks volumes: after goading the mob on, he sat back to watch whether the power could be taken back.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 5:16 pm
  #819  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
CNN was commenting the fact that during the riot/insurrection, Trump himself said nothing for a whole two hours. As the sitting president, and as someone asserting that he was re-elected, surely a higher level of leadership is requisite. A simple tweet to "stand down" and clarify that he objected to entering the Capitol is all that would be required. Omission of which speaks volumes: after goading the mob on, he sat back to watch whether the power could be taken back.

Note that his trusted associates, Hannity, Ingraham, and others, were sending text messages asking him to stop the insurrection. He chose not to and his inaction may yet be the subject of a criminal charge.
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Old Jan 15th 2022, 3:44 am
  #820  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
Note that his trusted associates, Hannity, Ingraham, and others, were sending text messages asking him to stop the insurrection. He chose not to and his inaction may yet be the subject of a criminal charge.
Really?! I didn't know that. I've always viewed Trump as a narcissist, but it seems he's a sociopath too.
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Old Jan 16th 2022, 2:47 am
  #821  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Really?! I didn't know that. I've always viewed Trump as a narcissist, but it seems he's a sociopath too.
Its a feature of narcissism. They care for no one but themselves and that includes wellbeing.
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Old Jan 16th 2022, 5:31 am
  #822  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by bats View Post
It's a feature of narcissism. They care for no one but themselves and that includes well-being.
Yes.
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