Re: Thatcher dies
 

Oh FFS.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

I am not going to second guess the decisions that were made based upon the facts known at the time by those best placed to make those decisions.

It may be that you believe that the commander of the sub was a blood thirsty, gung-ho, trigger happy fool. Put simply, I don't, neither did the commander of the Belgrano, neither did the Argentine Navy.

No peaceful solution had been worked out. I was not there so, again, I have no direct knowledge but from what I have read, the solution was a Peruvian one and was received by Mrs. Thatcher some time after the order was given.

I don't know how accurante Wiki is, but here is a link: General Belgrano

Re: Thatcher dies
 

The reality was that the UK response overall was pretty moderate and restrained in the circumstances. Argentina sent reconnaissance planes to the naval force as it travelled to the Falklands. According to international law it would have been justifiable to shoot them down but instead to avoid escalation of the situation they were merely incercepted and turned away. The air bases that the Argentine planes with the exocet missiles operated from could have been bombed or special forces sent in to neutralise the threat but a more defensive posture was adopted. The likes of Michael Foot supported the use of military force to liberate the Falklands. However, the facts won't ever pursuade those who choose to believe an alternative narrative. That said some of the jingoism displayed at the time was rather unappealing.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

I think the special forces were used or at least tried, I think from memory one helicopter with an SAS team was forced to land in Chile, the helicopter burnt (deliberately) the pilot arrested and the SAS slunk of into the jungle

Re: Thatcher dies
 

I'm not sure that there would be much jungle on the southermost tip of south america? I remember there was a helicopter crash when the special forces went into South Georgia. The other aspect with Chile is that Argentina had adopted an aggresive posture with Chile also claiming territory and threatening them with invasion.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

I would imagine that UK special forces are frequently in South America. Are you arguing that this mission (such that it was) was related to the Falklands War? If so, why would it have been necessary?

How does burning a military helicopter benefit the owners of it?

Re: Thatcher dies
 

If watching films like black hawk down has taught me anything, it's that you don't want your fancy military helicopters ending up in the hands of crazy people. Although if it was one of them sea king ones they'd be doing everyone back home a favour by burning it.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Burning it is unlikey to achieve that and, typically, UK special forces use chinooks, although I don't know about in the 1980s.

Films give the impression that cutting someone's throat with a knife is very quiet and quick. Those that have tried it know the deceased screams their head off and take some time to stop moving.

They may have decided to burn it but, as they were in a location they shouldn't have been in and as the heli was unlikely to contact information that would aid their opponents, I can't see why they would waste time making a bonfire.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Well that's worrying...

Re: Thatcher dies
 

This was a reasonably well documented operation - the precursor raid to the later-cancelled Operation Mikado to deny or destroy the Super Etandard aircraft of the Argentine Air Force. There's plenty of public-domain information about it - see BBC link below

Burning the helicopter was part of the effort to disguise the true nature of the operation and make it look like a crash. It was an RNAS Sea King, piloted on this occasion by an Army special forces pilot, Lt Richard Hutchings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17203398

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Almost all the Chinooks went down with the Atlantic Conveyor. As a result, much of the airborne resupply, special forces deployment and equipment movement duty was handled by RNAS Sea Kings with an assortment of pilots from all three services.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

I can believe it. I saw a gif'd version of what happened to eugene armstrong once. Never have I been happier to not have sound.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Thanks for that. Interesting, if not bizarre. Why not simply send bombers in?

As you may be aware, Regiment soldiers have a nickname of "Blades". The SBS are referred to as "Shakies" by members of the Regiment.

This, apparently, is as a result of a blue on blue contact that happened between some Blades and some Shakies during the Falklands War. The story goes that the Shakies literally "shaked" I am sure that Shakies have a different version of events;)

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Nearly 300 posts and no mention of the Thatcher government's negotiating with the terrorists, conceding some murders as acceptable, while the leader specifically denied it and their martyrs starved. I think this goes beyond the level of hypocrisy one expects from politicians. I think we might see this as a betrayal not only of the citizenry in general but specifically of the troops serving in good faith.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16366413

Re: Thatcher dies
 

I'm assuming its was to not be seen crossing into Argentinean sovereign airspace, from my understanding you use the SAS when you don’t want to admit or be seen doing something, a minor mishap that caused a fire on the airbase could be denied

Re: Thatcher dies
 

added to which, bombing would have been logistically difficult as well as politically challenging. The Vulcans deployed to Ascension were at the limit of their range, even with air-to-air refuelling in place. And given the ineffectiveness of the results when they did have a go at Stanley airfield (the operating surface was never put fully out of action) it's questionable whether that would have been a sensible option in the first place.

Agreed, though, that the whole fly-in-a-squadron-on-a-one-way-mission-in-a-C130 does illustrate some very bizarre planning mentality. Setting fire to a Sea King on a beach in Chile looks positively commonplace by comparison :blink:

Re: Thatcher dies
 

This is an interesting view. Who wrote it? (sorry can't access The Times)

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Daniel Finkelstein

The Times is a pay service now but for some reason sometimes the website allows me to read articles but other times not?

Matthew Paris had also written a good article on Mrs T. I tend to think he had previously written the best article on T. Blair's character.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Very true. However, I think we're all in agreement that the worst thing about hr was her utterly horrendous, annoying voice.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Thanks. I like Matthew Parris too.

Norman Tebbit made an interesting point in the HOL (today, I think) that if there were no Thatcher, and the unions had succeeded in bringing down the government, democracy in Britain would have been lost for many years.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Possibly because sight of it was avoided in order to claim no personal knowledge.


Did Britain know of the peace proposals? Cecil Parkinson Chairman of the Conservative Party was interviewed on Panorama (19.4.84): ‘Pressed by Emery, Mr Parkinson let the cat out of the bag. “Yes” he said, “we knew all about peace proposals that Saturday morning, primarily those of President Belaunde.” And when I had the opportunity of pressing Cranley Onslow, then minister of State at the Foreign Office, he said “Well the Foreign Office knew all about the peace proposals on the Sunday morning.”’ (Dalyell, p. 32).

James Prior in his memoirs A Balance of Power wrote that accepting the Peruvian peace plan would have split the Conservative Party: ‘If the Peruvian plan, or UN plan, or Haig plan had been agreed and a negotiated settlement ensued in early May, there would have been a wholesale revolt among Conservative backbenchers with up to 60 members revolting and I think up to 30 refusing the government whip. Now bearing in mind that the Conservative majority at that time was only 35, then Prior is saying that his opinion is that the government would have fallen if it had tried to go for a negotiated settlement’. (Paul Rogers, p.111).

Re: Thatcher dies
 

I don't know why so many people around the world are getting in such a knot over her death. She won't (can't) give a damn, Dennis has also croaked.

Too many people are getting into arguments and debates over something that at the end of the day will make not a do of difference to anyone or anything. What is done is done and the world still keeps on spinning.

Al this has really shown is what a significant role she played and what an extra ordinary person she was, whehter one liked what she did or not.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

See also Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot and, for that matter Jeffrey Dahlmer. To be extraordinary and disliked is not necessarily a cause for celebration.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Obviously Mrs T. is a convenient scapegoat, for anyone who doesn't like any aspect of life in the last 30 years or so, to latch onto. It's natural enough for people need someone to blame and, other than the Queen, she's probably been the highest profile public figure during that period.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...d-history.html

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Gordon "prudent" Brown undid Britain.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

It is true that my children have inherited the couplet, whenever anything at all goes wrong,

"You know who I blame?"

"The Thatcher guvment"

Over the years TTG has been deemed responsible for numerous thumb/hammer incidents, failed interviews and vehicular collisions. Still, I think there's probably some absolute limit to the extent of wrongdoing, only so evil a person can be; it won't hurt Thatcher's karma if she's wrongly held accountable for some suffering she didn't cause.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

+1 Surprisingly good.

Also appears in le Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...garet-thatcher

Re: Thatcher dies
 

I will ignore the personal attack. I don't have all day to search for every single article written about an incident that was the subject of an inquiry.

Is it your position that the commander of the sub knew of any offers that had been made; was he concerned about whether members of the Tory party would revolt?

I get that you don't agree with the position she took. I simply point you to the fact that those affected by the decision far more than you were agree that it was an appropriate decision.

Re: Thatcher dies - Judy Garland No. 1
 

OMG

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Re: Thatcher dies
 

What is rule 2 ? I watched it and just could not work out if it was parody or high art ?

R

Re: Thatcher dies
 

What personal attack? I was referring to politicians who get told of something but deliberately don't "see" it so they can deny knowledge.

You don't need all day to search. One just needs an awareness of the fact that all these things were well covered by news media as each damning bit of information was revealed.

You know, a bit like those media covered events referred to that happened in the 80s.

You don't need to sneer just because I remember them and consequently I am able to quickly find some appropriate references.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Gosh this thread divides BE.COM as it has the UK. Loved last night's Evening Standard. It said how they were going to send from the Falklands a line of honour. I so wanted it to be a line of Penguins or people dressed as Penguins.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Swearing etc. The bloke on camera was fine, it was all the comments next to it that was the problem - we have filters on BE to get rid of all the f & c words, but that clearly didn't! :lol:

Re: Thatcher dies
 

High art.

Surely any time anyone links a YouTube video ever then the post should be deleted as there's unfiltered swearwords in about every single comments section? Also my other post was deleted and other people went on to say pretty much exactly the same thing and yet no action was taken. Seems harsh.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

If they're seen and do contain swearwords as prominently as the one you linked to (which wasn't in the comment section, it was across half the screen), then yes, they would be.

Perhaps their posts weren't reported and yours was? We don't look at every thread or post I'm afraid.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

Well if there's no all powerful deity you believe in to blame for unpleasant aspects of life and incidents in the last 30 years or so, blaming Mrs T. could well be the next best thing. It's certainly no less logical.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

This is an excellent example of those on the left wrongly blaming Maggie for all the world's ills. British Rail was privatised in 1993, three years after she left office. She had personally intervened to prevent privatisation during her term in office, describing it as "a privatisation too far."

Most privatised industries have switched from taking taxpayer subsidies to paying considerable taxes to the treasury since privatisation. That actually understates the benefits of privatisation though. My recollection of using the telephone in the 1980s was regular crossed lines and getting cut off. Power cuts were ridiculously frequent. The trains were over 50 years old, slow and unreliable. Privatisation enabled these industries and others to obtain funds for investment that transformed them in a way that publicly owned businesses could never have achieved.

Re: Thatcher dies
 

And the half-arsed mechanism where rail companies couldn't own the railway lines they operate over was forced on them by EU rules.

I suspect the big problem with railway privatisation was that many of the railways must have been worth more as land than operating railways, so if they had really been privatised they'd have been ripped up and blocks of 'executive apartments' built where they used to be.