Spare a thought for these families.
Sep 21st 2012, 10:22 pm
#196
Banned
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,088
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
Again with the personal stuff. It's not relevant to the matter at hand.
Just to be clear. I don't want UK cops unarmed because I think they would be easier to kill because I hate them. I want them to be unarmed because I think they do a better job that way. In fact I think they do a better job than most other police forces around the world.
No, my central view is that nobody is trustworthy to have guns. There aren't many guns in the UK, gun crime is falling - therefore the UK police don't need guns.
But a numbers game is exactly what it is. Here you go:
1 - Policing is paid for out of taxation
2 - Therefore policing has finite resources
3 - Said resources should be spent where they are most effective
4 - You've admitted arming the police wouldn't lead to a statistically significant drop in crime.
5 - Guns would cost many millions (if not billions) to introduce.
6 - Therefore the money could be better spent elsewhere on crime reduction methods that will have more impact. Probably saving more lives in the process.
No, I'm suggesting each country does what it thinks is best. Are you suggesting that policing should be the same everywhere?
I really am done here now as I've nothing more to add and you just want to insult me. My points stand up to logical scrutiny I think - you can choose to ignore them because of your opinion of me as a "cop-hater" if you like. It's your prerogative.
I'll leave you to think about the fact that armed intervention didn't save Canadian war veteran and PTSD sufferer Greg Matters. In the UK this guy would still be alive and getting the treatment he needed.
Just to be clear. I don't want UK cops unarmed because I think they would be easier to kill because I hate them. I want them to be unarmed because I think they do a better job that way. In fact I think they do a better job than most other police forces around the world.
No, my central view is that nobody is trustworthy to have guns. There aren't many guns in the UK, gun crime is falling - therefore the UK police don't need guns.
But a numbers game is exactly what it is. Here you go:
1 - Policing is paid for out of taxation
2 - Therefore policing has finite resources
3 - Said resources should be spent where they are most effective
4 - You've admitted arming the police wouldn't lead to a statistically significant drop in crime.
5 - Guns would cost many millions (if not billions) to introduce.
6 - Therefore the money could be better spent elsewhere on crime reduction methods that will have more impact. Probably saving more lives in the process.
No, I'm suggesting each country does what it thinks is best. Are you suggesting that policing should be the same everywhere?
I really am done here now as I've nothing more to add and you just want to insult me. My points stand up to logical scrutiny I think - you can choose to ignore them because of your opinion of me as a "cop-hater" if you like. It's your prerogative.
I'll leave you to think about the fact that armed intervention didn't save Canadian war veteran and PTSD sufferer Greg Matters. In the UK this guy would still be alive and getting the treatment he needed.
No I don't buy your arguments as they are the same ones always spun, not due to your previous assertions as to your views on policing. by the way, when will you enlighten us as per your views of coppers? You did it openly on recent topics.
- arming police causes criminals to arm themselves.....where is the data on that...no Canadian police Shot in last few years....average is around 1ish a year....would it not be higher?...from what I can tell more uk coppers have been stabbed....
- shootouts.....personally know of only one here in in the LMD in 15 years of law enforcement
- bystanders....only know of one time in Canada
- police will be unapproachable .....we still hug babies and help old ladies Cross the road.
- guns less frequent..dropping. Up over the past decade...still too many about....what about violent crime in general? knife crime rampant....
- more people shot....maybe but what of prevention of death and serious injury to others when force is used? Equally as difficult to assess. I will agree that having a gun can cause some to rely on it more....I've seen it...but it comes down to what's proportionate. Not having one can lead to being more inventive to deal with an issue. But putting oneself and perhaps the public at risk.
I do feel all polce should be armed, or at least have effective models in place. The UK does not. I'm open to other models that woud not see all front liners armed. But in its present state, first responders are woefully unprotected, as are the public.
Anyhow....don't bother calling us if a very bad man is out with a gun....just grab a whistle, that ought to do it
Last edited by Boy d; Sep 21st 2012 at 10:33 pm.
Sep 21st 2012, 11:16 pm
#197
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,021
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
The instances where the police having guns would make a difference are those where the bad man doesn't have one. Bad man waves knife, police shoot him from a distance, that sort of thing.
Sep 21st 2012, 11:54 pm
#198
Banned
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,088
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
In that circumstance it doesn't much matter if the police are armed or not. The nutter goes bonkers, shoots up the cinema or the university or the hardware store car park, later the police arrive and find the innocents dead. The gangster walks into the chinkers, shoots his target and several bystanders, later the police arrive and say the dead were known to them. A man shoots his wife in the kitchen, after he's killed himself too, the police turn up and say he was unstable.
The instances where the police having guns would make a difference are those where the bad man doesn't have one. Bad man waves knife, police shoot him from a distance, that sort of thing.
The instances where the police having guns would make a difference are those where the bad man doesn't have one. Bad man waves knife, police shoot him from a distance, that sort of thing.
Guns are certainly not always of use....time distance ratio is 21 feet which means at the minimum for a cop has to see, formalize what he has seen, draw and shoot requires 21 feet. or about 2 seconds.
I had a guy on top of me with a machette before i could blink....my gun was n't even an afterthought as we went toe to toe...fortunately for me, he lost.
And yes, we go to many calls where everything was over long before we got there. Which is exactly what is wrong with the present armed response in the UK. Peak violence is usually mere seconds.
Sep 22nd 2012, 3:39 am
#199
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
The frontline UK police don't need firearms because they're very well trained and they aren't wimps so they don't need a security blanket. Anybody who needs a gun to do their job is a bit of a *******. IMHO. Guns is shit.
Last edited by Oink; Sep 22nd 2012 at 3:43 am.
Sep 22nd 2012, 4:28 pm
#201
Banned
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 314
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
If ever a nutter walks towards you with a gun pointed at you, just pick up some warm shit and throw it at them. (There will be a pile behind you)
Sep 22nd 2012, 7:44 pm
#203
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
I knew you would defend the actions of your colleagues here as your level of dissonance is so high that you just can't accept any criticism of the police. You wouldn't accept the that Robert Dziekanski's killing was unnecessary at the time; you didn't accept those NYC coppers who shot up the public screwed up either, so the fact that you don't accept that Greg Matters could have been saved is hardly surprising.
The reason I'm no longer bothering to engage on the guns issue is that, like a religious fundie, you expect everyone else to provide evidence to disprove your beliefs, but we just have to accept on faith that everything you say is true. You don't even realize this is what you are doing.
Anyway... moving on...
In fact - maybe you can answer this scenario.
It's 3am, and I see somebody has illegally broken into my house. They've got a drawn gun, so I'd better arm myself. I tell him to stop, he turns round with his gun pointed at me and I genuinely think I'm about to be killed so I shoot him.
Am I justified in doing so?
Am I justified in doing so if the person is a cop?
Last edited by Alan2005; Sep 22nd 2012 at 7:50 pm.
Sep 22nd 2012, 8:19 pm
#204
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
A stand off with a dangerously unarmed man on his own property. There was a real risk to the public what with those 20 coppers he was surrounded by. Killing him really was the only option.
I knew you would defend the actions of your colleagues here as your level of dissonance is so high that you just can't accept any criticism of the police. You wouldn't accept the that Robert Dziekanski's killing was unnecessary at the time; you didn't accept those NYC coppers who shot up the public screwed up either, so the fact that you don't accept that Greg Matters could have been saved is hardly surprising.
The reason I'm no longer bothering to engage on the guns issue is that, like a religious fundie, you expect everyone else to provide evidence to disprove your beliefs, but we just have to accept on faith that everything you say is true. You don't even realize this is what you are doing.
Anyway... moving on...
Saying this, I think you have a point here. I live out in the country a good 15 mins drive away from the nearest cop shop. If, as you say, there are times when you really need a gun and that peak violence is over in a few seconds then I probably ought to get one myself as should anyone in my position. We all know by the time the armed RCMP guy turns up it will all be over and they will just be there to take statements. So I can't rely on them to protect me.
In fact - maybe you can answer this scenario.
It's 3am, and I see somebody has illegally broken into my house. They've got a drawn gun, so I'd better arm myself. I tell him to stop, he turns round with his gun pointed at me and I genuinely think I'm about to be killed so I shoot him.
Am I justified in doing so?
Am I justified in doing so if the person is a cop?
I knew you would defend the actions of your colleagues here as your level of dissonance is so high that you just can't accept any criticism of the police. You wouldn't accept the that Robert Dziekanski's killing was unnecessary at the time; you didn't accept those NYC coppers who shot up the public screwed up either, so the fact that you don't accept that Greg Matters could have been saved is hardly surprising.
The reason I'm no longer bothering to engage on the guns issue is that, like a religious fundie, you expect everyone else to provide evidence to disprove your beliefs, but we just have to accept on faith that everything you say is true. You don't even realize this is what you are doing.
Anyway... moving on...
Saying this, I think you have a point here. I live out in the country a good 15 mins drive away from the nearest cop shop. If, as you say, there are times when you really need a gun and that peak violence is over in a few seconds then I probably ought to get one myself as should anyone in my position. We all know by the time the armed RCMP guy turns up it will all be over and they will just be there to take statements. So I can't rely on them to protect me.
In fact - maybe you can answer this scenario.
It's 3am, and I see somebody has illegally broken into my house. They've got a drawn gun, so I'd better arm myself. I tell him to stop, he turns round with his gun pointed at me and I genuinely think I'm about to be killed so I shoot him.
Am I justified in doing so?
Am I justified in doing so if the person is a cop?
Sep 22nd 2012, 8:26 pm
#205
Banned
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 314
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
A stand off with a dangerously unarmed man on his own property. There was a real risk to the public what with those 20 coppers he was surrounded by. Killing him really was the only option.
I knew you would defend the actions of your colleagues here as your level of dissonance is so high that you just can't accept any criticism of the police. You wouldn't accept the that Robert Dziekanski's killing was unnecessary at the time; you didn't accept those NYC coppers who shot up the public screwed up either, so the fact that you don't accept that Greg Matters could have been saved is hardly surprising.
The reason I'm no longer bothering to engage on the guns issue is that, like a religious fundie, you expect everyone else to provide evidence to disprove your beliefs, but we just have to accept on faith that everything you say is true. You don't even realize this is what you are doing.
Anyway... moving on...
Saying this, I think you have a point here. I live out in the country a good 15 mins drive away from the nearest cop shop. If, as you say, there are times when you really need a gun and that peak violence is over in a few seconds then I probably ought to get one myself as should anyone in my position. We all know by the time the armed RCMP guy turns up it will all be over and they will just be there to take statements. So I can't rely on them to protect me.
In fact - maybe you can answer this scenario.
It's 3am, and I see somebody has illegally broken into my house. They've got a drawn gun, so I'd better arm myself. I tell him to stop, he turns round with his gun pointed at me and I genuinely think I'm about to be killed so I shoot him.
Am I justified in doing so?
Am I justified in doing so if the person is a cop?
I knew you would defend the actions of your colleagues here as your level of dissonance is so high that you just can't accept any criticism of the police. You wouldn't accept the that Robert Dziekanski's killing was unnecessary at the time; you didn't accept those NYC coppers who shot up the public screwed up either, so the fact that you don't accept that Greg Matters could have been saved is hardly surprising.
The reason I'm no longer bothering to engage on the guns issue is that, like a religious fundie, you expect everyone else to provide evidence to disprove your beliefs, but we just have to accept on faith that everything you say is true. You don't even realize this is what you are doing.
Anyway... moving on...
Saying this, I think you have a point here. I live out in the country a good 15 mins drive away from the nearest cop shop. If, as you say, there are times when you really need a gun and that peak violence is over in a few seconds then I probably ought to get one myself as should anyone in my position. We all know by the time the armed RCMP guy turns up it will all be over and they will just be there to take statements. So I can't rely on them to protect me.
In fact - maybe you can answer this scenario.
It's 3am, and I see somebody has illegally broken into my house. They've got a drawn gun, so I'd better arm myself. I tell him to stop, he turns round with his gun pointed at me and I genuinely think I'm about to be killed so I shoot him.
Am I justified in doing so?
Am I justified in doing so if the person is a cop?
Sep 22nd 2012, 8:45 pm
#206
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
Sep 22nd 2012, 8:55 pm
#207
Banned
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 314
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
Methinks this is another one of your little porkies.
Sep 22nd 2012, 9:02 pm
#208
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,378
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
I am standing on a spot. I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly south.
I turn 90 degrees and I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly east.
I turn another 90 degrees and I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly north.
Rather than being 5 miles east of where I started, I am standing on the same spot from where I began.
I see a bear and I shoot it dead.
What type of bear is it (I know it is dead) and why?
Sep 22nd 2012, 9:09 pm
#209
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
This reminds me of a puzzle that Johnny Ball told once. It involves guns and shooting so I believe it is relevant:
I am standing on a spot. I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly south.
I turn 90 degrees and I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly east.
I turn another 90 degrees and I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly north.
Rather than being 5 miles east of where I started, I am standing on the same spot from where I began.
I see a bear and I shoot it dead.
What type of bear is it (I know it is dead) and why?
I am standing on a spot. I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly south.
I turn 90 degrees and I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly east.
I turn another 90 degrees and I walk exactly 5 miles in a straight line perfectly north.
Rather than being 5 miles east of where I started, I am standing on the same spot from where I began.
I see a bear and I shoot it dead.
What type of bear is it (I know it is dead) and why?
Sep 22nd 2012, 11:45 pm
#210
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,378
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
The original asked what colour the bear was, but I thought that made it too easy.
No fooling a brainbox like you though