Originally Posted by Hertha (Post 10692430)

I'm sure that their families would be consoled by this.

Originally Posted by Zen10 (Post 10692383)

No, I am the opposite of a Marxist. I'm not going to relax on the subject of resources on the grounds we can mine Mars for them just yet, as no space mining has shown itself to be cost effective. For this reason, we are in a closed system with finite resources, and our economy is one that requires constant growth to stop itself imploding.

Originally Posted by Zen10 (Post 10692383)

All the states in the system will do whatever they have to do to secure resources for themselves. China's economy is growing, but in absolute and relative global terms, the US's is shrinking in terms of its size to China's. This will have an effect on military budgets and spheres of influence over the next 25 - 50 years, making this planet unrecognisable to what we see today.

Originally Posted by Hertha (Post 10692413)

At least the police officers had the option of responding in kind. This wasn't an option for John Speed, Roger Brereton or Ian Broadhurst, all of whom were killed in a country where there is no constitutional right to bear arms.

Originally Posted by Alan2005 (Post 10692440)

I dunno, that sounds pretty marxist to me. My view is that the economy does not require constant growth, that's only politicians who want to get elected. The economy has no requirements - it just is.

It's not a closed system either - we have quadrillions of joules of energy hitting the earth every day. The sun is a vast and mostly untapped infinite resource - oil is just stored solar energy really.

Also, space mining might not be cost effective now, but at some point it's going to happen. You are talking about 25 to 50 years in the future. I wouldn't bet on it not happening in that time. The tech more or less exists to do it now and just it's a matter of priorities.

I also wouldn't be surprised if oil is being phased out by then. Other than that, I'm not sure what other resources are set to run out in that time. Certain isotopes of helium? Rare earth metals (not very likely, they aren't that rare - japan has just found loads)? Nuclear fuels?

Personally I don't think it matters if a resource runs out, something will take it's place - technology will solve the problems over time. Your world view is unnecessarily miserable and I think you should cheer up a bit.


In absolute and relative terms eh? Look, you said up thread that the US economy was contracting - this is wrong, but fair enough, you actually meant in comparison to china. Ok, lets move on.

Originally Posted by Hertha (Post 10692435)

Well, if you care to look to the original post, you will find that it involved an armed madman attempting to shoot two police officers. They were able to return fire and save their lives.

I suppose that this was the point of the original post.

Originally Posted by Zen10 (Post 10692532)

I want the world you describe (space mining, free kilojoules, etc) I'm just not as optimistic as you are any more. I see a big fight for resources, particularly oil and fresh water coming up on the horizon. The reason I argue the system requires constant growth is because this is the only way previous debt can be repaid. In terms of international politics, I am absolutely fundamentally opposed to the Marxist focus and interpretation of events, and agree with them only on the basics.

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 10692674)

I wonder if you are not taking a slightly Australian tinged view on resource consumption, based on the surge of Chinese mining activity and demand down under. A big fight is not a forgone conclusion. New technologies and energy sources are being developed which may redefine resource competition. Also, bear in mind that as economies mature and modernise, global population may well fall. In short, it's not all doom and gloom for the West.

Originally Posted by Zen10 (Post 10692759)

I don't think it's doom and gloom for the West - I think the West will win any competition for resources, so long as it doesn't happen too far in the future. New tech and energy resources - maybe. We use a hell of a lot of oil though.

Originally Posted by Beaverstate (Post 10692768)

It is about far more than oil. Natural gas is nearly as important, possibly more so in the near future. Reserves of NG are increasing daily.:amen: