Priorities?

Old Apr 16th 2019, 1:25 pm
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Default Priorities?

Tragic as the devastation caused by the fire at Notre- Dame, Paris is, I wonder at the world's priorities. Millions already pledged to restore/rebuild.......and millions throughout the world, including the West, still living in poverty. Some guy in France has promised one hundred million Euros towards the rebuilding project......and no doubt the Vatican and churches around the world will contribute....... quite frankly the opulence of the Catholic Church, and many other religious orders has long disgusted me. Their priorities? No offence intended.

Anyone remember the the movie, "The shoes of the Fisherman" (1968)?

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Old Apr 16th 2019, 3:04 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

I'm not interested in the religion, but I am curious how the hell they built this cathedral in 1163. It must have taken ages to mix that cement by hand.
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Old Apr 16th 2019, 3:28 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by macadian View Post
Tragic as the devastation caused by the fire at Notre- Dame, Paris is, I wonder at the world's priorities. Millions already pledged to restore/rebuild.......and millions throughout the world, including the West, still living in poverty. Some guy in France has promised one hundred million Euros towards the rebuilding project......and no doubt the Vatican and churches around the world will contribute....... quite frankly the opulence of the Catholic Church, and many other religious orders has long disgusted me. Their priorities? No offence intended.

Anyone remember the the movie, "The shoes of the Fisherman" (1968)?
why not bulldoze it then and build some tower blocks in its place with the money then??
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Old Apr 16th 2019, 3:58 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by Danny B View Post
I'm not interested in the religion, but I am curious how the hell they built this cathedral in 1163. It must have taken ages to mix that cement by hand.
I went there as a child so I can't remember, but was it not constructed from blocks hewn from natural materials by masons?
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Old Apr 16th 2019, 4:26 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by Danny B View Post
I'm not interested in the religion, but I am curious how the hell they built this cathedral in 1163.
Absolutely. Anyone who's built anything will wonder at the craftsmanship of people like these who made things. Even today, among the also-rans we have people who know how to make things.
It's not simply hand manufacturing of block after block, constructing walls of these blocks that are plumb vertical and don't fall over, designing vaulted ceilings and arches that have survived 900 years and in some cases a fire, etc etc.
It's not just the manual labour involved, but these masons and carpenters did it without the use of computers and CAD drawings that you can print off and give to your workforce for explanation. Every detail had to be described to the man doing the job by an engineer/master craftsman from, no doubt, from some form of master drawing or template. I know that not all buildings survived and many fell down, so some weren't as good at it as others but...
This one stood for 900 years and we burned it down. Shame on us.
But.. the question is about priorities.
In years to come, give 100M euros to feed the third world and you'll be forgotten. Give 100M euros to rebuild a church and your name'll be inscribed in gold plate for all to see, plus you'll become a saint and get a key that'll open the eye of that particularly tight needle and you'll get a free pass into heaven. The priority isn't about need, it's about legacy.




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Old Apr 16th 2019, 5:11 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Absolutely. Anyone who's built anything will wonder at the craftsmanship of people like these who made things. Even today, among the also-rans we have people who know how to make things.
It's not simply hand manufacturing of block after block, constructing walls of these blocks that are plumb vertical and don't fall over, designing vaulted ceilings and arches that have survived 900 years and in some cases a fire, etc etc.
It's not just the manual labour involved, but these masons and carpenters did it without the use of computers and CAD drawings that you can print off and give to your workforce for explanation. Every detail had to be described to the man doing the job by an engineer/master craftsman from, no doubt, from some form of master drawing or template. I know that not all buildings survived and many fell down, so some weren't as good at it as others but...
This one stood for 900 years and we burned it down. Shame on us.
But.. the question is about priorities.
In years to come, give 100M euros to feed the third world and you'll be forgotten. Give 100M euros to rebuild a church and your name'll be inscribed in gold plate for all to see, plus you'll become a saint and get a key that'll open the eye of that particularly tight needle and you'll get a free pass into heaven. The priority isn't about need, it's about legacy.
This is so not an either/or question. I don't know what the philanthropic history of these specific donors is, but there are plenty of examples of organizations and individuals who quietly support charitable efforts in feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick, and all that good Biblical stuff. That doesn't mean that the same people can't rally round to save a cultural icon of the scale and notability of Notre Dame.

On a somewhat related note, there's no shortage of craftsmen who can do the work - there are probably plenty still around who worked on the restoration at Windsor Castle in the 1990s who could lend the benefit of their experience (the hammerbeam roof in St George's Hall was the largest green-oak structure built in Europe since the 17th century, apparently...), plus there's all the masons and carpenters who've been involved in the "living archaeology" project at Guedelon castle - entirely constructed using hand tools and medieval techniques. One of the biggest challenges, apparently, is likely to be the shortage of oak trees large enough to supply the size of lumber necessary for the roof beams.
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Old Apr 16th 2019, 6:18 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
In years to come, give 100M euros to feed the third world and you'll be forgotten. Give 100M euros to rebuild a church and your name'll be inscribed in gold plate for all to see, plus you'll become a saint ...
Oh I dunno...everyone still remembers Saint Bob.

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Old Apr 16th 2019, 7:07 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
On a somewhat related note, there's no shortage of craftsmen who can do the work - there are probably plenty still around who worked on the restoration at Windsor Castle in the 1990s who could lend the benefit of their experience (the hammerbeam roof in St George's Hall was the largest green-oak structure built in Europe since the 17th century, apparently...), plus there's all the masons and carpenters who've been involved in the "living archaeology" project at Guedelon castle - entirely constructed using hand tools and medieval techniques. One of the biggest challenges, apparently, is likely to be the shortage of oak trees large enough to supply the size of lumber necessary for the roof beams.
On another somewhat related note, I worked on Osborne House as a carpenter back in the day. Everything was overseen by elderly men in tweed jackets that, IIRC, were employed by English Heritage. While they preferred for us to work with old style hand tools, we used electric tools whenever they were not around. A skilled carpenter is a skilled carpenter whether they lived 900, or 10, years ago. Clearly, I wasn't very skilled and, when drilling a hole, I broke through the ceiling of the Prince Albert room which, apparently, had not had a human in it for some time. They needed to remove the plaster from the books that were open on one of his desks. Oooppps!
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Old Apr 16th 2019, 10:14 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by Danny B View Post
I'm not interested in the religion, but I am curious how the hell they built this cathedral in 1163. It must have taken ages to mix that cement by hand.
It's easy when you don't finish it until 1345. It doesn't take a lifetime, it takes generations.
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Old Apr 16th 2019, 10:46 pm
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Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
It's easy when you don't finish it until 1345. It doesn't take a lifetime, it takes generations.
I bet you they were hourly paid union workers.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 6:49 am
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by Danny B View Post
I'm not interested in the religion, but I am curious how the hell they built this cathedral in 1163. It must have taken ages to mix that cement by hand.
I recommend reading “Pillars of the Earth” by Ken Follett 😉
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 4:38 pm
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I suspect many of the wealthy people who donated are doing so purely because they want their name on a thank-you plaque inside the Notre Dame. You won't believe how much these people love to stamp their name on things for vanity.
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Old Apr 17th 2019, 4:47 pm
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Originally Posted by CanadaJimmy View Post
You won't believe how much these people love to stamp their name on things for vanity.
"These people" being vain people? Yes, vain people are vain, that's why there are TRUMP towers. I call him Mr. Raider call him Mr. Wrong, call him insane

Wealthy and vain aren't synonymous though, there aren't "GATES aided by BUFFET" malaria eradication centres, there are just malaria eradication centres funded by Gates with backing from Buffet.

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Old Apr 17th 2019, 5:21 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
"These people" being vain people? Yes, vain people are vain, that's why there are TRUMP towers. I call him Mr. Raider call him Mr. Wrong, call him insane

Wealthy and vain aren't synonymous though, there aren't "GATES aided by BUFFET" malaria eradication centres, there are just malaria eradication centres funded by Gates with backing from Buffet.
Valid point, could have worded it better.
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Old Apr 18th 2019, 1:41 pm
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Default Re: Priorities?

Originally Posted by macadian View Post
Tragic as the devastation caused by the fire at Notre- Dame, Paris is, I wonder at the world's priorities. Millions already pledged to restore/rebuild.......and millions throughout the world, including the West, still living in poverty. Some guy in France has promised one hundred million Euros towards the rebuilding project......and no doubt the Vatican and churches around the world will contribute....... quite frankly the opulence of the Catholic Church, and many other religious orders has long disgusted me. Their priorities? No offence intended.

Anyone remember the the movie, "The shoes of the Fisherman" (1968)?
The simple answer is that we live in times where people care too much about religion but not so much about the teachings of religion.
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