British Expats
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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Maple Leaf (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/)
-   -   Prince Andrew (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/prince-andrew-929352/)

Almost Canadian Nov 19th 2019 2:20 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 12765918)
That is reductio ad absurdum, AC, and you know it.

There is a colossal imbalance in the power and influence of the "woman" and the "man". "The woman" was actually a 17-year old girl who was an occasional paid plaything of a then-notorious (and since convicted) sexual predator. "The man" is a privileged and protected playboy, seemingly without the brains to realise that going on TV with a laughable "explanation" was going to do the exact opposite of draw a line under this story.

It's not strange times we live in; they were strange times when this sort of behaviour was considered par for the course, just what people of that set do.

Andrew and the royals have had a damned easy pass in life. It's about time they were genuinely held to account for their behaviour. Their privilege only comes from our willingness to give it, so they should be held to account by us.
None of that deals with the facts.

She has made comments that he suggests (I don't know where he was or if he has/had the medical condition he suggests renders her accusations questionable) mean that her version of events could not have happened. I am not defending him as I have no idea what happened and, if it did happen, I would be happy to pull the trigger.

Jingsamichty Nov 19th 2019 2:31 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12765940)
None of that deals with the facts.

She has made comments that he suggests (I don't know where he was or if he has/had the medical condition he suggests renders her accusations questionable) mean that her version of events could not have happened. I am not defending him as I have no idea what happened and, if it did happen, I would be happy to pull the trigger.
I went and re-read your post that I replied to. Indeed, you have set out the "facts", as we are meant to understand them... Woman makes allegations. Man makes defence, on TV. People generally appear to disbelieve the man. All this is fine. Then we get to your last sentence, "Strange times we live in."

Why is that strange? Most people, and I'm sure as a lawyer you've seen more examples than most, tend to not believe outlandish defences to plausible allegations. What is strange about that?

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12765896)
A woman makes an allegation and, from what I have seen, gives lots of details about what she alleges happened. Man responds stating that the allegations could not be correct (his location and his medical condition) and people on the internet know what happened, believing that he is the one lying. Strange times we live in.

dave_j Nov 19th 2019 2:59 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Epstein.
A man who knew too much for his own good.
Looks like a couple of patseys are lined up to take the fall...
Andrew and others would have breathed a big sigh, convenient wasn't it?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...in/4082679002/

spouse of scouse Nov 19th 2019 3:24 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by dave_j (Post 12765966)
Epstein.
A man who knew too much for his own good.
Looks like a couple of patseys are lined up to take the fall...
Andrew and others would have breathed a big sigh, convenient wasn't it?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...in/4082679002/
Is it usual practice to arrest and charge correctional officers in the US if a prisoner dies on their watch? Or does it depend on the 'status' of the prisoner?

mikelincs Nov 19th 2019 3:44 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12765993)
Is it usual practice to arrest and charge correctional officers in the US if a prisoner dies on their watch? Or does it depend on the 'status' of the prisoner?
It might be if the 'suicide' wasn't actually suicide, whhich is what many people have said, given the connections of many of the people in Epsteins Black Books, I suspect there would be a lot of them not wanting him to give evidence, and with the wherewithal to do something about it.

caretaker Nov 19th 2019 3:44 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12765993)
Is it usual practice to arrest and charge correctional officers in the US if a prisoner dies on their watch? Or does it depend on the 'status' of the prisoner?
If they can pin sleeping on duty on civilian guards who'd worked double shifts instead of members of the corrections officers' union they'll have less opposition.

Almost Canadian Nov 19th 2019 3:54 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 12765947)
I went and re-read your post that I replied to. Indeed, you have set out the "facts", as we are meant to understand them... Woman makes allegations. Man makes defence, on TV. People generally appear to disbelieve the man. All this is fine. Then we get to your last sentence, "Strange times we live in."

Why is that strange? Most people, and I'm sure as a lawyer you've seen more examples than most, tend to not believe outlandish defences to plausible allegations. What is strange about that?
I haven't watched his appearance on TV.

I get it, you believe he raped her. At this time, based upon what I have read, I don't

Danny B Nov 19th 2019 4:01 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by mikelincs (Post 12766000)
It might be if the 'suicide' wasn't actually suicide, whhich is what many people have said, given the connections of many of the people in Epsteins Black Books, I suspect there would be a lot of them not wanting him to give evidence, and with the wherewithal to do something about it.
It is truly mind boggling that he had access to 'items' that helped him commit suicide. I have worked in jail cells both in the UK, and here at the RCMP detachment in Kamloops, BC and the protocol for high risk inmates is strongly adhered to.

It seems beyond belief that he had access to a ligament to hang himself while the two jail guards slept at the SAME time.

This sounds like an MI6 job.

dbd33 Nov 19th 2019 4:12 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12766011)
I haven't watched his appearance on TV.

I get it, you believe he raped her. At this time, based upon what I have read, I don't
We know, from the famous picture, that he had inappropriate physical contact with her so it's just a matter of how far we think that likely to have gone. If we believe the rest of her story, that she was obliged to have sex with friends of Epstein and Maxwell, then her story is, I think, more plausible than his. Do you not believe any of what she has to say or do you think that, despite his being English, Prince Andrew is an innocent, cuddly, kind of a guy?

Siouxie Nov 19th 2019 5:03 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Age of consent - consensual sex... not necessarily rape or 'underage sex'.

dbd33 Nov 19th 2019 5:10 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 12766044)
Age of consent - consensual sex... not necessarily rape or 'underage sex'.
Wouldn't it have been rape in New York though not in Chelsea or on Paedo Island?

Almost Canadian Nov 19th 2019 5:43 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12766020)
We know, from the famous picture, that he had inappropriate physical contact with her so it's just a matter of how far we think that likely to have gone. If we believe the rest of her story, that she was obliged to have sex with friends of Epstein and Maxwell, then her story is, I think, more plausible than his. Do you not believe any of what she has to say or do you think that, despite his being English, Prince Andrew is an innocent, cuddly, kind of a guy?
I haven't seen any pictures showing any form of inappropriate physical contact. Are you referring about the one with him, her and another female?

Having had to deal with a number of the members of the royal family in the past, I have no particular liking of any of them.

I am unable to describe anyone that I have ever met as an innocent, cuddly, kind of guy and, having never met him, I would not use those words to describe him either.

I have to admit that I had heard her say anything and I have only read what the BBC has written about this and, from what I have read, I prefer his version of events to hers, primarily on the "sweating" issue.

dbd33 Nov 19th 2019 6:11 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12766052)
I haven't seen any pictures showing any form of inappropriate physical contact. Are you referring about the one with him, her and another female?.
Ms. Roberts and Prince Andrew are in the left foreground. She is wearing floral trousers and had a bare midriff. The Prince has his arm around her waist. Ghislain Maxwell stands to the right grinning. If they are lovers, and in a jurisdiction where they are allowed to be lovers, then the pose is affectionate. If that is not their circumstance, and I don't think it is, he ought not to be embracing her. He's a powerful man and she's a child; it's inappropriate.

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12766052)
Having had to deal with a number of the members of the royal family in the past, I have no particular liking of any of them.
I don't have a strong opinion either way, I wouldn't invent their role. I wouldn't want to be them. I wouldn't exempt them from the standards of behavior expected of everyone else.

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12766052)
I am unable to describe anyone that I have ever met as an innocent, cuddly, kind of guy and, having never met him, I would not use those words to describe him either.
Where I was going with that is that some cultures are more given to contact than the British are. Touched by an old Italian a teenager might think "Yuck" but accept it as the way of things. The English have no cultural excuse.

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12766052)
I have to admit that I had heard her say anything and I have only read what the BBC has written about this and, from what I have read, I prefer his version of events to hers, primarily on the "sweating" issue.
Why do you think he stayed with Epstein and Maxwell if not for their exceptional hospitality?

dbd33 Nov 19th 2019 6:34 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Exceptional.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/22/prince-andrew-epstein-foot-massage

Jingsamichty Nov 19th 2019 6:37 am
Re: Prince Andrew
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12766011)
I haven't watched his appearance on TV.

I get it, you believe he raped her. At this time, based upon what I have read, I don't
Victoria Roberts/Giuffre was about 12 years old when she worked at Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort. She was about 14 or 15 when she first met Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein, and was 15 when she became sexually involved with him... this much was told to the FBI in 2013.
https://www.insider.com/epstein-accu...festyle-2019-8

It appears beyond doubt that Prince Andrew was a regular visitor to Epstein who was well-known for hosting sex parties with girls like Giuffre on the menu. Prince Andrew was photographed with Giuffre at Maxwell's house. It is a matter of fact that Epstein admitted to, and was convicted of, procuring underage girls for prostitution.

How many people do you know who are notorious procurers of underage girls for prostitution? I'm sure it's none, but if you did know one, would you go to his house and cuddle young girls? Would you go to his house for 4 days after he came out of jail for procuring underage girls for prostitution?

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to believe Prince Andrew did no wrong. But we are entitled to question your judgement of what is proper, or right, or legal, based on your stated opinions. For what it's worth, I think you are being deliberately obstructive just for reasons of BE sport. I don't actually think that you, as a parent to young women, believe that Prince Andrew's behaviour is anything other than abhorrent and obscenely entitled.


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