Oakvillian

Or how about drawing the line at a point where a consenting adult chooses not to insure herself, finds herself in need of medical attention, and quite rightly is invited to pay for that attention out of pocket.

Again, nobody here is suggesting that she not be seen by a doctor or admitted to hospital. Nobody is denying that, as the child will be a Canadian citizen, it will be covered by the provincial insurance scheme from birth. Nobody is questioning whether the father is covered. But the expectant mother, without valid immigration status, is uninsured and should expect to be invoiced for the treatment she receives.

By extension to your position, if a teenager drives a car before they pass their driving test, and therefore has no valid insurance, you seem to suggest that they shouldn't worry if they have an accident, because it's simply a matter of timing: they would pass their driving test eventually, and pay into an insurance scheme in due course, so it's all covered. Sounds like nonsense to me...

SchnookoLoly

Brilliant response and an excellent analogy.

The rules are pretty clear. If you are a Canadian Citizen or a Canadian PR in BC, you are covered. If you have an application in process and you're waiting for sponsor approval, you're covered. When they applied, they KNEW sponsor approval would take 10 months. And then they got pregnant. Everyone knows pregnancy is 9 months. Basic math - baby is going to arrive before sponsor approval comes through. Therefore, mom is not covered. Baby will be covered if Baby needs any other care.

And then as Oakvillian said, and has been pointed out a few times, they aren't saying "you don't have status, so you can't use the hospital." What they are instead saying is "sure, you can use the hospital, but you have to pay for it." They chose NOT to get private insurance, and now they are choosing NOT to pay for it. They had the choice of getting private insurance. They had the choice of applying outland, which would have given sponsor approval in 40 days (less, actually, as a year ago sponsor approvals were more like 25 days!). They had the choice of going back to Peru to have the baby. And finally, they have the choice of paying.

Getting free health care to which they are NOT entitled is NOT a choice.

Former Lancastrian

So the BC Minister of Health is looking into this as he stated
“The services of British Columbia hospitals would be there, and we would worry about the details later,” said Terry Lake.

“If there is a problem involved with bureaucracy, we will be very compassionate and work with them. And if they can demonstrate that the process is happening, then we will extend coverage.”

So it appears the crisis may be averted. Taking out all of the emotions this should be a lesson to all spouses, partners etc that moving to Canada before 2nd stage approval is not a good idea unless you have private medical coverage which includes pregnancies.
So they met 4 years ago and got married. They moved back to Canada 2 years ago (May 2012 ?) but their application was only received in the summer of 2013
So did they wait a year before submitting the application? Had they submitted the application on arrival in 2012 then its likely she would have received PR status sometime in 2013 and would be covered by BC MSP.

Shard

Common sense prevails in BC.
Pleased to hear that.

Completely disagree with OakV and Schnook logic - as you do mine. Nationality of the child and father makes for a unique circumstance which supersede the normal form filling rules. IMO.

Former Lancastrian

Common sense or public outrage and media attention?
Last month we had a Nigerian lady arrive at our POE who was just over 6 months pregnant. She was coming to attend a wedding at the end of June which had been put back a month. She is married and had 2 other children with her but her husband stayed in Nigeria. She had a return ticket back to Nigeria but will probably be giving birth on or about the date she is due to fly back.
She has no health insurance covering a pregnancy.
You are the CBSA officer so what would you do?
This is a true event and not made up.

Shard

Is her husband Canadian?
Is she planning to live in Canada? <no>

Completely different circumstances. Sounds like maternity tourism to me.

AlliF

I would be extremely suspicious as it seems to be a very long visit just for a wedding and very late in a pregnancy. Interesting that the wedding date was 'moved' to be closer to her due date too...
Medically speaking I'm surprised the airline would even accept her on the return flight that late in pregnancy?

Aviator

There is no common sense with govt. (if there was we'd still have HST) merely media attention and politicians covering their back.

There are procedures for coverage and if those conditions are not met, then it is up to the individual to make their own arrangements. Should be the same for everyone. The child would have been covered as soon as it was born on the fathers coverage. The parent knew their situation, they are well educated and should have sorted it out themselves.

People with disabilities, who cannot support themselves, who have lived here all their lives cannot get enough help to even survive. They cannot work and those who don't have families to help live in poverty. No public outrage or help for them. Families who try support them, give them some extra money to help out, the govt. take it off their disability.

Society should be helping those who cannot help themselves rather than those who can.

Former Lancastrian

Not quite maternity tourism but this happens more than you could imagine.
Legally we could not stop her entering so thats why the Minister wants changes to the Citizenship Act.
If her family members pay for the birth then its a non issue. If they don't then the taxpayers end up paying for it. This also happens with medical diversion flights that we get our fair share of. If the province can get paid by an insurance company then no harm no foul but several hospitals have been stung for expensive treatments so again the taxpayers foot the bill. How many people on a short trip i.e. less than 4 weeks are fully insured? How many Canadians cross that border for a weekend shop and don't take out extra insurance?
Why because they think it won't happen to them and the costs to get coverage is better in their pocket than in an insurance companies.
At the end of the day healthcare is governed by the Provinces so they choose to cover who and what that coverage includes not the Feds.
Maybe I should Go Public

Shard

Agree with your sentiment on the disadvantaged.
Nevertheless, in this case it is merely a timing issue not an eligibility issue.

SchnookoLoly

So if a 16 year old doesn't get their drivers' license, so isn't insured, then totals their car, should that person have to pay for it? After all, they were in the process of getting their license, and would have had insurance eventually, so it's just a matter of timing, right?

How about an 18 year old in Ontario (or any province where the drinking age is 19, not 18) who goes out and gets caught buying alcohol under age so is charged for it. Should they have to pay the fine? After all, they are going to turn 19 soon, so would have been able to buy then anyway, so it's just a matter of timing, right?

How about someone on their IEC visa who is waiting for PR. Their IEC visa runs out but their PR hasn't been approved yet. They're married to a Canadian. Their IEC has expired but PR hasn't been granted, so they decide to keep working. It's working illegally, but they have a PR application filed, and it's going to be approved eventually, so they should be able to keep working. It's just a matter of timing, right?

Shard

I think the difference between these three examples are that the actions are all wrongs - breaking the law. In the pregnancy case in question, no wrong is being committed. If you want to be modern about it you could even argue that the father is having the baby (not literally) but metaphysically. Like those couples that gleefully announce "we're pregnant". I do understand the technical breach of MSP regulations, but I choose to focus on the bigger picture of a new Canadian family.

Reframing a little, if your "notional brother" married a Peruvian, brought her back to Blighty, and they had a baby a week before said Peruvian sister-in-law (notional) was granted permanent right to remain, would you be happy paying the NHS bill for the delivery? Not that one would be issued!

Former Lancastrian

Im not in total disagreement with your views on this as there are others faced with this situation who never went public.
Perhaps in a few years this family might be complaining that her parents in Peru have not been chosen for sponsorship due to the numbers cap and although the super visa option is still open to them they cannot work on this visa and don't qualify for FSW/FSTP or can't get an employer to apply for an LMO.

SchnookoLoly

Okay never mind doing anything wrong. A 16 year old wants to go out. His parents aren't around to drive him. His parents have bought him a car, which is sitting in the driveway, but he can't drive it until next week, after he passes his driving test. He wants to go out, though, so he takes the car anyway. He goes to the movies and comes back home. Nothing happens, no accidents or tickets. His parents get mad at him because he's not licensed or insured to drive. His response: "I have my driving test in a week, so it's just a matter of time! It's my car anyway!"

No wrong has been committed, he simply isn't allowed to drive until he passes that test.

Okay, so a few years ago, my husband, who is half-American and carries an American passport, was visiting his family, all Americans, in the US. He got bitten by a tick and had to go to the hospital. He had to pay for it. He took out travel insurance before he went. He paid his bill. He's an American with American family being cared for in an American hospital. Should he have had to pay?

As for the NHS, they should charge for way more than they do - the taxpayer picks up so much bill that they shouldn't have to. Two years ago when my Mom was visiting, she fell down the stairs in my flat and dislocated her toe. I took her to the walk-in clinic, then to the hospital, where she had an xray, seen by two different doctors, local anaesthetic, had the toe re-set, and another xray to make sure all was fine. She had her travel insurance, and tried to give all her information to pay for the care. The NHS never sent a bill. They didn't ask to see any of her documentation or proof of insurance. They didn't take a deposit for the care up front. (The US did this to my husband, he paid I think $300 up front then received the balance in a bill by post about 3 weeks later.) Mom's insurance company has called her a few times and asked if she's received the bill, they are ready to pay for it, just need the bill. No bill has ever come.

I'm a Canadian and a returning resident to Ontario. I've paid taxes in Ontario, have no convictions, and am a good citizen. When I returned to Ontario, I had a 3-month waiting period to qualify for OHIP. If I'd gotten sick and had to have been taken to the hospital, I would NOT have expected Ontario to cover me simply because "it's just a matter of time" and I'd be covered in a few months. I took out private insurance to cover my backside for those 3 months. Luckily I did not need it. But I fully would have been expected to pay if I did need it. And I *am* a Canadian who lived here previously!!

My biggest issue with this particular case is that the couple knowingly decided not to purchase private insurance because "she was healthy". Well, no sh*t sherlock - no one purchases insurance once they're sick, that's the point of it. You purchase it JUST IN CASE. I opted not to purchase phone insurance, because I thought I would be careful with my phone. Guess what, I dropped my phone and it broke. Now I'm on the hook to pay for it because I chose not to take out insurance. This couple chose not to take out insurance to cover the wife, when they knew the wife would not otherwise be covered. Then they went and got pregnant. ANd now they are expecting free health care because they chose not to take out insurance, because, well, it's just a matter of time.

scrubbedexpat091

Currently a maximum of 906 a month for a single in BC for disability.