Originally Posted by Judy in Calgary

And this at a time when your compatriots are grappling with real water problems. Yet, ironically, the forum members who are battling the floods back in the UK are being stoical about it.

Originally Posted by Judy in Calgary

Yes, you're right, Batty. I started this exercise reflecting about British people, but the contents of this thread, and especially the exchange of posts with you, has shown me things about myself that I wasn't conscious of before.

The most recent round of thoughts I had about this started when a member of this forum sent me a gift in the form of a book called, Watching the English : The Hidden Rules of English Behaviour by Kate Fox. It was someone whose questions I had answered openly on the forum but for whom I had done some additional research and sent responses by PM and e-mail. When the parcel arrived from Amazon, it took me completely by surprise. As I wrote to the sender, they really shouldn't have. But at the same time I was very touched, and I thought that the title of the book was deliciously appropriate, given the context in which we'd "met" each other. (We haven't met in real life, just in cyberspace.)

I opened the book and flipped through it to find out the names of the chapters. One of the first things I did was to read the chapter on humour. While it did go some way towards explaining the topic, I confess to being partly in the dark, even now. I reckon that, in order to navigate your way through British humour, you have to have been immersed in it from an early age. If you come to it late in life, you haven't got a snowball's hope in hell. So I've accepted that that is one issue I'll just have to park.

Then I went back to the beginning, and started reading the book methodically. As I was reading it, I was watching the watcher. I thought it was quite brave of Kate Fox to undertake the study at all. If you're going to be an anthropologist, it's easier to go off to the Trobriand Islands or some other far flung place where you are unfamiliar with the culture. It's much more difficult to be objective about your own culture. On the one hand, I was relishing Fox's writing, which was explaining to me so much that I hadn't understood about the English and which was helping me to understand discussions on this forum in a new light. On the other hand, I was testing her for thoroughness, and trying to spot any elements that she might have missed (given that she herself was English and had embarked on what I thought was an almost impossible mission).

The one issue to which I felt she paid insufficient attention was moaning. Fox mentioned it in several places, in reference to other topics. But it didn't have its very own chapter, which I thought it deserved. Mind you, Fox was observing the English at home and not on an expat forum. Because of the challenges that expats face and because they censor themselves when they converse with natives, it's reasonable to expect that this is a place where one would encounter more complaining than normal.

So, it was in that context that I got thinking about the topic of "whinging Poms" and started this thread.

But then, as the dicussion unfolded, I came to see things about myself. I came to see that, most of the time anyway, I'm stoical about Canada. I think it's fair to say that my whinging is rather rare, and even then it's mostly confined to non-Canadian friends with whom I feel very safe.

With that said, though, I must admit that, the longer one lives here, the more permission one has to complain about certain things. For example, I was with some other long-time Calgarians the other day, and we were commenting on the fact that Calgary has grown much dirtier in the last couple of years.

Perhaps none of us would have welcomed a comment to that effect from a newly-arrived Calgarian. But, because we were all long-standing Calgary residents, we all felt that we were qualified to comment on changes that the city has undergone recently. I guess it's kind of like complaining about one's own kids but resenting it if someone else complains about them.

So, as time passes, one is perceived to have paid one's dues. One is allowed into the local "club," so to speak, and one is allowed to complain about certain things. But, no matter how many years pass, there are some kinds of criticism that are never welcome.

What this discussion has revealed to me is that I envy you Britons because, at worst, the things that you complain about make you look mildly ridiculous, whereas the things that I might complain about would make me look repulsive.

The other difference between us makes me envy you on the one hand but pity you on the other hand. It's the fact that you can return to the UK. There are moments when I'm sorry I don't have that option. But then that option is a mixed blessing. As you said, even if you can return, it would not be easy to do so. And, even if you stay in Canada, I would think that the knowledge that you can return to the U.K. would always be there at the back of your mind. I am guessing that that would make it harder to bite the bullet and make the best of things in Canada.

Originally Posted by Judy in Calgary

As I was reading it, I was watching the watcher. I thought it was quite brave of Kate Fox to undertake the study at all. If you're going to be an anthropologist, it's easier to go off to the Trobriand Islands or some other far flung place where you are unfamiliar with the culture. It's much more difficult to be objective about your own culture.

Originally Posted by Judy in Calgary

As long as we're all spitting our dummies, I'll share something that still annoys me once in a blue moon. It's the lack of servants, like the ones we had in my childhood home. Now at an intellectual level, I'm totally againsts a social system that is built around domestic servants. But, once in a while, in spite of what I like to think my values are, I get ticked off at having to iron clothes, etc.

Originally Posted by Beebop

Aye, but the thing is that a significant minority of British people do have servants, they just call them something different....I was on holiday recently and the discussion after dinner amongst the disparate group of people in the lounge was how you can't get a decent cleaner nowadays. The subject was brought up somewhat hesitantly at first but with more confidence once people were comfortable that others there also had cleaners. It was a traditional hotel, nothing posh and that was reflected in the people staying there.

But I know lots of people who use an ironing service and have often thought I should set up a domestic service agency, of which there are many....for busy people who can't wait in for deliveries and watch builders. etc.

Originally Posted by Alvic

In Northern Ireland they're called women/wives!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by dbd33

Look. I find much wrong with Canada but, for the thousandth time, this is paradise for the cheese eater. Local cheeses. Imported cheeses. Traditional cheeses. Radical fashion cheeses. This is a wonderful place for people who love cheese. (And, in the past five years it's also been possible to get good bread to go with it). I can't abide this canard about the cheese.

Originally Posted by batty-x-ray

Sometimes instead of support we get the Howards of this world who try to insult Britons and the UK at every chance, to tell us if thats we dont like Canada to stay at home. Well maybe I wish I had, I may not be fleeing a
dangerous environment but it would be hard to go home all the same. However we should find out in the next few weeks if we have PR, and if we dont I will in some way be relieved that the decision has been made for us

Originally Posted by Judy in Calgary

So, it was in that context that I got thinking about the topic of "whinging Poms" and started this thread.

But then, as the dicussion unfolded, I came to see things about myself. I came to see that, most of the time anyway, I'm stoical about Canada. I think it's fair to say that my whinging is rather rare, and even then it's mostly confined to non-Canadian friends with whom I feel very safe.

With that said, though, I must admit that, the longer one lives here, the more permission one has to complain about certain things. For example, I was with some other long-time Calgarians the other day, and we were commenting on the fact that Calgary has grown much dirtier in the last couple of years.

Perhaps none of us would have welcomed a comment to that effect from a newly-arrived Calgarian. But, because we were all long-standing Calgary residents, we all felt that we were qualified to comment on changes that the city has undergone recently. I guess it's kind of like complaining about one's own kids but resenting it if someone else complains about them.

So, as time passes, one is perceived to have paid one's dues. One is allowed into the local "club," so to speak, and one is allowed to complain about certain things. But, no matter how many years pass, there are some kinds of criticism that are never welcome.

What this discussion has revealed to me is that I envy you Britons because, at worst, the things that you complain about make you look mildly ridiculous, whereas the things that I might complain about would make me look repulsive.

Originally Posted by gryphea

I think Brits probably winge less than you think Judy- I know we seem to have a global reputation in it- but I think that is in part unfounded. I know for a fact that aussies DO winge , particularly badly when they lose at sport nationally. I know this as I lived there for a tinsy bit, and one of my best friends lives there currently and my uncle and cousin live there.

Originally Posted by dingbat

That to me is what does distinguish the British from many other nationalities. We will listen to criticism, for the most part, and think about it. Adjudging that criticism is the next logical step. That is where paths diverge. After twelve years of people watching here, an inability to accept that things can be done differently or better by a foreign culture is the one thing that stands out for me about living in the West.

Originally Posted by startwin

I see absolutely no difference between Howard's postings and your own. Is this bash Howard week? Isn't posting on here about stating your own opinion - which is exactly what Judy did. I see some contradictions in her two postings, but still wish I had her way with words!!