Almost Canadian

Whether you like it or not, in a democracy, voters get what they deserve.

Tirytory

I thought that too...why on earth someone would want to set the welfare of employees back fifty years I can't imagine...

Shard

Yup.

Shard

There is a kind of Canadian/American mentality that if something is to do with government, it's automatically bad. Everybody wants small government and no taxes, without realising how much public good is actually provided by the state. Unfortunately, with the current crowd in Britain (Cameron, Osborne et al) they are ruthlessly aping short-sighted North American ideology, and many will suffer unnecessarily .

orly

Would they? They might just lose a fortune in tax receipts. Is that factored in to the savings?

The issue isn't so much the public sector but the private sector under-paying people. I'm sure the CEOs of big private Canadian employers are struggling with their poor pay packets which are funded by swindling (or just laying off) the average Joe who works for them

scrubbedexpat091

I have a bad taste from unions because of the screwing over that has happened to me being in union jobs.

I've been in 3 unions, and those were my 3 lowest paying jobs, the most inflexible, and poorest working conditions.

Experience with unions has led to a very bad opinion of them because of the fact, I made less when the union came in, lost benefits, and then had to pay part of my salary to the union, but I received no benefits in return.

Unions obviously vary, but I cannot say I like unions because of how they treated me in union jobs.

I've been screwed more by unions then I have was by the company..

BC Teachers and union settled in the end, no back to work legislation.

I lost my job at the airline in 2003 because we had gone union in 2001, if we had not been union the company would have laid off by performance instead of date of hire, my manager didn't wan't me to go, but his hands were tied, union said date of hire and only date of hire. Yep really benefited there. Lost the only job I actually enjoyed and actually wanted to be at, and happened to be the only long term job I had as well because I enjoyed it so much.

scrubbedexpat091

I don't see a benefit to unions. I have yet to find a union that actually gave a rats ass about the employees, they don't they just want more members to collect more dues, the union contract was basically California (2 unions) and BC Employment standards (BC) word for word on everything, my pay and benefits decreased, and yet I had to pay a portion of my wages to the union.

Like I said, the 3 unions I belonged to left a very very bad taste in my mouth in regards to unions, unfortunately for many in the private sector, unions are pretty useless, there are some really strong ones still, but there are many more who don't care about anything other then having more members to collect more dues.

I always voted down the contracts, but because if high turnover the union and company always threw in a bone to newer employees since they out numbered older employees.

Explain to me how I benefited from these unions when I make more in all the non-union jobs, and had better working conditions being non-union?

Maybe if I was part of a union that benefited me things would be different.

I agree unions of the past had great benefit to working class, the unions of today for the most part do not and seems to only be select industries where unions are still strong and beneficial to workers.

Look at the grocery stores and how poorly their unions have done for the employees, they basically gave into the company.

Nurses union, teachers union, rail union, ship yard unions still have what it takes to fight for labor, unions in hotels (largely non-existent now) retail union and the like, really are powerless and do nothing for those working in those jobs, and many times your better off being non-union in those industries now.

Unions are not all created equal, there are a lot of weak, poorly managed unions who are just a business needing members to pay the bills.

Unfortunately unions in the sorts of jobs I can get are very poor at benefiting the employee and generally are not pleasant places to work.

BristolUK

Unions are only as strong as the members make them.

I'm not sure I've heard much about retail disputes - other than Walmart shutting down when workers want to be in a union.

I imagine fear of the ready made replacement workforce and a reluctance to strike for a better deal might influence matters.

All those public sector workers on 37% more than their private sector equivalents (not that they all necessarily really exist) ...would they be unionised by any chance?

orly

I'm sure it will take a few seconds of Google Image searching to find a graph showing how as union membership falls, wages quickly drop too.

Following on from that, I'd be incredibly surprised if the people in the public sector, who it seems you believe are "overpaid", are not unionised.

caretaker

Eat the rich! Long live the struggle of working people against imperialist aggression!

scrubbedexpat091

Like I said, my view of unions are based on my experience in being in 3 of them in which wages were worse after the union came in, but we had to pay the union so no way around it were we better off, but because the unions just wanted more members to bring in the revenue, they would bribe the new hires since all 3 were high turn over industries with a large signing bonus and since new hires outnumbered us we had no chance of not having the union.

So basically the union screwed one part of the work group to benefit the other so the union could get the revenue they needed.

If the day comes where I have a union job where the union was of benefit, then my opinion may change.

Do you honestly think in this scenario the union did any good for the work force as a whole?


There isn't much work stoppage in retail here with the unions, they know they don't have much clout and don't want to lose the membership and their dues, so they pretty much give the company what they wan't.

There was a strike a few years ago at a store that was part of Loblaws that went on strike, lasted 3 years, and one Ikea store here was on strike for 2 years or so. (1 Ikea store is union and the other is non union) but overall retail strikes are not that common and only a few chains are union.


Take Save On, under the current contract the pay starts at 10.85/hr and since they pretty much only hire part-time, I'll use an average of 1,250 hours per year.

Raises are based on number of hours worked, so you will get a raise after 21 weeks of 10 cents per hour.

In 3 years you'd be up to 11.55 (still below Wal-Mart which starts at 12 per hour.)

In 6 years you would be up to 13.15

Top pay is 17.85/hr and will take 14 years to reach averaging 25 hours per week.

You'd be better off at Wal-Mart long term since they are a larger company and offer more opportunity to get into management then a regional grocery chain.

Is there any real benefit to being in a union for those kinds of wages when they are really no better then non-union retailers?

(My wife used to work at Wal-Mart, in 2 years she wen't from 12 per hour to 13.25 per hour.)


*Would be based on being hired after 2013. Those hired before may be on a different pay scale.*

scrubbedexpat091

Unions seem to be more beneficial in today's world to professionals like teachers, nurses and such and far less useful to the working class and blue collar workers. A reversal of what unions used to be.

orly

Having a crap union or crap representatives doesn't mean unions are bad. It just means your one was unfortunately.

scrubbedexpat091

Unions have largely become useless for low paid workers, the companies have all the power and even when union the jobs are still low paid, poorly benefited and of no real use to the employee.

Opinions are formed from our experiences, and I did say unions of the past did benefit workers, but I don't see unions of today doing much to increase wages, benefits and working conditions.

Retail and hospitality unions certainly are not, not even the unions at Air Canada do much considering how low the pay is there now for airport based jobs.

Unions have done it to themselves by caving in to the demand of companies and not actually fighting for workers.

The only strong unions seem to be professional white collar, along with specific industries like port jobs, rail roads and such.

Nobody should be surprised if someone like me has such a distaste for unions when they received no benefits to being in said union and only saw money being taken away each pay check, less benefits, a less flexible working environment and such.

Hard to see any positive.

BristolUK

You are Dave Spart and I claim my five pounds.

But the 'clout' comes from the members. The reps can't sit at the negotiating table and ask for X% if the members aren't willing to do anything about it.

If the members won't strike or work to rule or something, the reps have no power.

I'm still not clear why you separate "the unions" from the workforce when they are one and the same, but supposing you as a low paid worker think your employer should pay you more. How do you convince them? You can either negotiate yourself and find yourself out on your arse as a "troublemaker" and replaced by someone else or organise in a group so that it's not practical for the company to get rid of all of you. Your position is immediately strengthened because you have a bit more security from which to argue your case. That would be a union and you'd be part of it..

That's fair enough Apart from all those on 37% more
(sorry )

Agreed, but employment rights and working conditions were not given by benevolent employers just as good social programs have not been formed by kind governments; they are lobbied for by pressure groups and unions.

I suppose the difficulty on this forum is that many Brits - even those who are anti - do see the benefit of unions, perhaps because there is greater involvement in industrial relations.

In the UK it's not always about a dispute, there's plenty of ongoing stuff with monthly consultation about all kinds of work related matters.