Letters of consent and travelling with children
May 26th 2014, 1:20 pm
#46
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Location: SW Ontario, Canada
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
But as I mentioned what is considered skirting around the law when you don't actually break it but are somewhat bending it. What you consider reasonable grounds, what I consider them and what any judge does are all different. Its been awhile since I was a copper in the UK but aren't the Judges Rules still applicable today although probably revised since I left in 1988.
An examination is not a detention therefore not considered a detention. Now one could argue that this will depend on the duration of the exam and what steps were taken during the exam to make a decision.
How many coppers have pulled over a vehicle containing 4 youths they wish to question. Oh look they failed to indicate or committed any other amount of a moving vehicle offence so grounds to pull them over?
I totally understand my authorities and powers much the same as you do. Im not in favour of abusing those but when those lines are grey then there is that possibility of any Law Enforcement Officer using that grey area in cases like abduction.
An examination is not a detention therefore not considered a detention. Now one could argue that this will depend on the duration of the exam and what steps were taken during the exam to make a decision.
How many coppers have pulled over a vehicle containing 4 youths they wish to question. Oh look they failed to indicate or committed any other amount of a moving vehicle offence so grounds to pull them over?
I totally understand my authorities and powers much the same as you do. Im not in favour of abusing those but when those lines are grey then there is that possibility of any Law Enforcement Officer using that grey area in cases like abduction.
No grounds whatsoever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjtDoKDIVIw
Repeatedly ask "Have I commited a crime" "Am I free to go" until the officer gets frustrated and has to let me go because I haven't done anything wrong.
I know i'm not helping your case , and I agree with your duties as a CBSA officer, and if you can prevent an international child abduction by all means do, but that just came to mind when you brought up that scenario of the 4 kids in the car
May 26th 2014, 9:33 pm
#47
Settled.
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: St. Albert. AB.
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
But as I mentioned what is considered skirting around the law when you don't actually break it but are somewhat bending it. What you consider reasonable grounds, what I consider them and what any judge does are all different.
I disagree, there will be a standard burden of evidentiary proof required, gained from reference to case law for instance.
An examination is not a detention therefore not considered a detention.
I have no idea what an examination entails. However, I would have thought everyone would feel psychologically detained while you stand there and look at their passport. What would happen at this point if they walked off? Nothing? I think not. They are detained while that examination is in progress I would argue, whether it takes a minute or an hour.
How many coppers have pulled over a vehicle containing 4 youths they wish to question. Oh look they failed to indicate or committed any other amount of a moving vehicle offence so grounds to pull them over?
I totally understand my authorities and powers much the same as you do. Im not in favour of abusing those but when those lines are grey then there is that possibility of any Law Enforcement Officer using that grey area in cases like abduction.
I disagree, there will be a standard burden of evidentiary proof required, gained from reference to case law for instance.
An examination is not a detention therefore not considered a detention.
I have no idea what an examination entails. However, I would have thought everyone would feel psychologically detained while you stand there and look at their passport. What would happen at this point if they walked off? Nothing? I think not. They are detained while that examination is in progress I would argue, whether it takes a minute or an hour.
How many coppers have pulled over a vehicle containing 4 youths they wish to question. Oh look they failed to indicate or committed any other amount of a moving vehicle offence so grounds to pull them over?
I totally understand my authorities and powers much the same as you do. Im not in favour of abusing those but when those lines are grey then there is that possibility of any Law Enforcement Officer using that grey area in cases like abduction.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/o...h-race-figures
May 26th 2014, 9:42 pm
#48
Lowering the tone
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Here and there
Posts: 7,351
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Just Tazer them till they die. Dead men tell no tales.
May 26th 2014, 10:22 pm
#49
Lost in BE Cyberspace
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
I don't believe in grey areas of law, its this kind of perception that leads to miscarriages of justice. I am also afraid you betray your prejudices in your example. What is wrong with 4 kids in a car? It is this kind of stereotyping that alienates people and makes any interaction so much more difficult. No wonder black people are so much more likely to be stopped with this kind of 'grey' approach.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/o...h-race-figures
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/o...h-race-figures
How do we feel about the Police conducting their Check Stops over the long weekends or Christmas period. The intention is to catch drunk drivers.
Without these stops officers patrolling the streets at 2.30 am have to find a reason to pull a vehicle over be it containing one person or 4 persons and the easiest way to do this is by following the vehicle and hoping the driver commits a moving vehicle offence of which there are many.
How many charges have been thrown out of court by Law Enforcement Agencies not following procedures e.g. having a search warrant etc.
We are talking in this thread about the possibility of child abduction taking place and does CBSA have the legal authority to make enquiries as to if a child is potentially being abducted.
Im ok with the courts saying NO you can't do this. As we are the only ones working at the Border then do you care about child abduction and want this type of offence to be stopped?
We process over 90 million passengers per year yet Im betting very few cases would ever be challenged when we carry out this type of examination.
Yes Ive had parents bitch when I ask do they have a letter or other documentation but far more Thank Yous from parents for doing this.
Ask why so many Amber Alerts are issued each year within Canada and the reasons why they were issued.
So when its your kid who gets abducted you would be OK with no Law Enforcement Agencies being on the lookout for them and there has been little time for a warrant to be issued?
May 26th 2014, 11:42 pm
#50
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Joined: Nov 2009
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
A few years ago I took my two younger boys to Albania. I was travelling under my maiden name as it was before I married my husband. My older son had my ex husbands surname and my younger son had my "fiancés" name.
At the Albanian border they asked me to prove they were my kids and I had no way of doing it!! I seriously panicked and the border guards must have seen the genuine panic on my face as they let me in!!
Wouldn't recommend that on anybody! ( I had visions of my ex enjoying my discomfort and even possibly telling them if they had insisted on calling him that I had abducted his son!!)
At the Albanian border they asked me to prove they were my kids and I had no way of doing it!! I seriously panicked and the border guards must have seen the genuine panic on my face as they let me in!!
Wouldn't recommend that on anybody! ( I had visions of my ex enjoying my discomfort and even possibly telling them if they had insisted on calling him that I had abducted his son!!)
May 27th 2014, 12:20 am
#51
Grumpy Know-it-all
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 8,928
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
A friend of mine has this problem all the time with CBSA and CBP, she basically has to be a lawyer at secondary inspection and explain British family law to them. She has a child, none of those things listed above apply. She is not in contact with the father and couldn't get a letter even if she wanted to.
All she's got really is a letter from a solicitor in the UK summarizing British law and her child's birth certificate which has her listed as the mother.
I understand the intention of CBSA but the reality is that family law varies widely around the world and I seriously doubt any inspector can be an expert on any given law.
May 27th 2014, 12:23 am
#52
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
And this webpage is total bullshit: http://travel.gc.ca/travelling/children/consent-letter
Equivalent people to notary publics don't exist in other countries necessarily, how on Earth is a CBSA inspector going to know that?
Even in Canada notaries aren't used that much.
However, we strongly recommend that you have the letter certified by an official who has the authority to administer an oath or solemn declaration (e.g. a commissioner of oaths, notary public or lawyer), so that border officials will be less likely to question its authenticity.
Even in Canada notaries aren't used that much.
May 27th 2014, 12:27 am
#53
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Yes and it's a good question, why are you, because under section 4 of the Children Act 1989 a father in the UK has no automatic parental rights to a child unless (a) they're married to the mother; or (b) they're listed on the birth certificate (and I don't think they are automatically anymore); or (c) the parents agree in writing that he has parental responsibility or (d) a court awards him the right. So if none of those apply (which is generally the case with unmarried parents, so not rare), a father cannot give consent because he has no legal right to give it.
A friend of mine has this problem all the time with CBSA and CBP, she basically has to be a lawyer at secondary inspection and explain British family law to them. She has a child, none of those things listed above apply. She is not in contact with the father and couldn't get a letter even if she wanted to.
All she's got really is a letter from a solicitor in the UK summarizing British law and her child's birth certificate which has her listed as the mother.
I understand the intention of CBSA but the reality is that family law varies widely around the world and I seriously doubt any inspector can be an expert on any given law.
A friend of mine has this problem all the time with CBSA and CBP, she basically has to be a lawyer at secondary inspection and explain British family law to them. She has a child, none of those things listed above apply. She is not in contact with the father and couldn't get a letter even if she wanted to.
All she's got really is a letter from a solicitor in the UK summarizing British law and her child's birth certificate which has her listed as the mother.
I understand the intention of CBSA but the reality is that family law varies widely around the world and I seriously doubt any inspector can be an expert on any given law.
May 27th 2014, 12:30 am
#54
Lost in BE Cyberspace
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
And this webpage is total bullshit: http://travel.gc.ca/travelling/children/consent-letter
Equivalent people to notary publics don't exist in other countries necessarily, how on Earth is a CBSA inspector going to know that?
Even in Canada notaries aren't used that much.
Equivalent people to notary publics don't exist in other countries necessarily, how on Earth is a CBSA inspector going to know that?
Even in Canada notaries aren't used that much.
Alot of the travel . gc . ca website is bullshit. They advise me as a dual Canadian/European Union (Maltese) citizen to use my Canadian passport to go to Europe. Why on earth would I do that when I am a European and can use my EU passport to get into the EU through the faster lines and way less questioning at the border?
May 27th 2014, 12:42 am
#55
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Alot of the travel . gc . ca website is bullshit. They advise me as a dual Canadian/European Union (Maltese) citizen to use my Canadian passport to go to Europe. Why on earth would I do that when I am a European and can use my EU passport to get into the EU through the faster lines and way less questioning at the border?
May 27th 2014, 12:53 am
#56
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
We're having thread drift here...
Name one, if the mother is from the UK. There is no legal method. Say the father is dead, what can the mother produce?
I'm sure there must be other countries too where the father doesn't automatically get parental rights.
Yes I realize in divorces some parents can be vindictive and refuse to sign letters of consent etc but those can be overcome by legal means.
I'm sure there must be other countries too where the father doesn't automatically get parental rights.
May 27th 2014, 12:55 am
#57
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
A death certificate.
May 27th 2014, 12:55 pm
#58
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May 27th 2014, 10:42 pm
#59
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
You have no legal right to a death certificate in that situation, they're not married. This assumes there is even a method of accessing it, say the parent moved to another country.
The whole concept of these letters is flawed because it assumes that both parents have legal rights over the child which they may well not and moreover by asking for the father's consent that implies the father has the consent to give which puts the mother in a possibly tricky legal situation in her home country.
So unless they're going to train CBSA up on the family law of several thousand jurisdictions, it's not going to work.
This isn't some theory, I've seen it in action.
The whole concept of these letters is flawed because it assumes that both parents have legal rights over the child which they may well not and moreover by asking for the father's consent that implies the father has the consent to give which puts the mother in a possibly tricky legal situation in her home country.
So unless they're going to train CBSA up on the family law of several thousand jurisdictions, it's not going to work.
This isn't some theory, I've seen it in action.
May 27th 2014, 11:11 pm
#60
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
You have no legal right to a death certificate in that situation, they're not married. This assumes there is even a method of accessing it, say the parent moved to another country.
The whole concept of these letters is flawed because it assumes that both parents have legal rights over the child which they may well not and moreover by asking for the father's consent that implies the father has the consent to give which puts the mother in a possibly tricky legal situation in her home country.
So unless they're going to train CBSA up on the family law of several thousand jurisdictions, it's not going to work.
This isn't some theory, I've seen it in action.
The whole concept of these letters is flawed because it assumes that both parents have legal rights over the child which they may well not and moreover by asking for the father's consent that implies the father has the consent to give which puts the mother in a possibly tricky legal situation in her home country.
So unless they're going to train CBSA up on the family law of several thousand jurisdictions, it's not going to work.
This isn't some theory, I've seen it in action.
If they can't satisfy CBSA then CBSA don't have to let them in.
Im guessing these types of cases are very few and lets not forget we can also interview the child with the parent out of earshot who might negate or confirm suspicions of abduction.
CIC even have a manual about all this so rather than me post answers read it yourselves
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc.../enf21-eng.pdf