Just when you'd thought......
 

BREXIT..
Yepp, it's not gone away, in fact it's become the poker game of the decade.
But it's been too quiet on here recently. Far too quiet.
Like most divorce arguments, it's all about money and the UK has at last realised this. Davis could become my hero if he does nothing else but keep poking Barnier and the rest of the EU gravy slurpers in the wallet.

Re: Just when you'd thought......
 

Money, as in the 'Brexit bill' is the absolute least important issue. The fact that the UK government is fixated on it only proves their incompetence.

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The UK government needs to realise that they are one against 27, and they will NOT get their own way, the EU has to do nothing and just let the UK leave without any of the things they want to agree on, so the UK government needs to soften it's stance and really do some negotiating.

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I honestly don't know what is happening. Davis is smart enough to realise that, but I think he is simply pursuing some kind of political path, and waiting for events to overtake his efforts. He's not ideological in the way Rees Moggs is for example. May is incompetent beyond words, a total embarrassment to the country. Why the Tories haven't jettisoned her yet is a mystery. On current progress the cliff edge is slowly coming in to view. Hopefully we will be given a second chance to consider isolating ourselves in light of better information and fewer lies.

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Dream on. The closer the date of leaving approaches, the more countries like Germany will realise how much they have to lose too and the parties will move closer to one another.

The EU, at the moment, appears to be simply holding out in the hope that the remainers in the UK will be able to persuade the others that Brexit shouldn't happen. That is precisely the reason why they are adopting the whole, "we will not negotiate on the trade stuff until X and Y have moved sufficiently towards agreement." There is nothing in any treaty that provides for this they are simply acting as a bully. That won't be able to continue forever.

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Absolutely.

Remember the thumbscrews they used on Greece and the damaging farce that greek bailouts have been. Everything they do is designed profit the northern states and Bruxelles, far from being the cuddly French Poodle, the EU is a German Rottweiler yapping and baring it's teeth at anyone who dares step out of line.

Davis is serving the UK well simply to stand his ground against the deluge of propaganda and pressure, both at home and abroad, and the sooner the rest of the UK realise this and support him fully the better.

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That may well be the case, but you wonder why Davis and Co are falling for it, if indeed they are. The Brexit bill is not a significant amount in relation to the enormous change that is being contemplated, they're talking about 30, 60, 100 billion, and a good portion of that number will be mutually agreeable anyway (Davis already admits that). So they are messing about for the sake of 10 or billions, why? The general public barely differentiates between a billion and a million, and few have any idea of the size of overall GDP, so Davis would be far better off to simply agree a figure and move on. Even if it's 100 billion, it's shouldn't be a deal breaker if they (mad Brexiteers) really want to Brexit. It would be subject to the final exit anyway. Similarly, they could work out an arrangement with Ireland/NI and EU/UK citizens rights. It's not that complicated, and, ironically, it is the Brexiteers that were screaming that it is not complicated at all prior to the vote.

If the EU is using these three issues as a sticking point, it doesn't make sense to me why the government doesn't solve them with expediency and move on to the complexities of trade/movement. It suggests the government is either incompetent or complicit.

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From what I have seen from this side of the Atlantic, the rhetoric is coming from the EU by The use of phrases such as "The UK will have to do better" & "We cannot move on until".

The figure bandied about by the EU regarding the divorce bill doesn't appear to be based on anything credible but clearly aids their attempts to persuade the UK that Brexit will be painful. The UK taxpayer will be best served by the UK agreeing to pay what it ought to, and nothing more. You appear to want to play directly into the EU's hands, so their tactics appear to be working on you.

I agree that those 3 issues should be capable of being dealt with relatively easily but the EU, to the media at least, appears to be saying "No" to everything unless it is what they want. I couldn't believe what I read on the BBC's page recently regarding the NI/Ireland border. The EU appears to be delusional.

As I said above, there is no reason why the issue of trade cannot be discussed now, but the EU is acting like a spoiled child and will continue to do so until their position starts to affect it, as it will.

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Davis is portraying the EU as a spoilt child, and it seems many Brits are believing it. The EU demands may well have an ulterior motive, but they are not particularly unreasonable either. Davis is claiming that the EU is demanding outlandish sums and just expects Britain to pay it, but Britain want's to check it line by line? Do you really buy that simplistic tripe? We're not negotiating a divorce on Jerry Springer. Obviously both sides have detailed costed analyses on residual liabilities, but that is not the story we are being fed...we are being told they are trying to stitch us up, those big bad mean faceless EU bogeymen. It's amazing so many fall for it. Ireland, it's obvious, no border whatever the cost. Citizens rights, are more problematic, as they tie directly in to FOM, and that relates to the bigger Brexit question itself. In fact it's Britain that is the spoilt child, believing the entire continent revolves around it's own idiosyncrasies.

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Ok. I don't see it they way you do but I don't have a dog in this fight and I believe that leaving the EU means leaving the single market in its current state. I believe that the UK will want to achieve the best trade deal possible but, if doing so means the free movement of workers, I don't believe that will happen as the UK will be in a worse position than had it remained in the EU.

I have to admit that I don't know how much the UK pays to the EU each year. But 100 billion seems to be a huge amount and, if it is so straightforward to calculate the amount, why haven't Labour et al stated how much should be paid?

Edit: It appears that the UK pays around 13 billion to the EU each year. Quite why the UK should be paying almost 8 times that amount after leaving is beyond me.

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Well 100B is the top end figure that someone has bandied about, nobody yet knows what the realistic figures are as neither side has bothered to set out their numbers. The amount relates to ongoing long term investment commitments, it will all be set in treaty law (as you can imagine); no jiggery pokery but obviously prone to some interpretation.

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They believe it because EU behaviour strongly suggests that it's true.

I agree that EU demands aren't unreasonable.. if you happen to be Germany or France or.. well anyone who wants the UK to continue to fund the EU slush fund.

But fortunately the UK population have finally seen through the rhetoric and realise that Mr Barnier and his ilk have no clothes... I know that this is a frightening, even terrifying vision especially if you extend this to Merkel.

The argument that continuing to fund EU profligacy simply because the EU won't have it any other way is very much like the school bully who steals sweets saying he'll make your life unbearable if you don't hand over the loot. This leads to only one outcome.. more bullying. Standing up to bullies always carries risk but it's the right thing to do.

The EU, as the living EEC has mutated into a putrifying, self serving, blood sucking vampire and Brexit is only the first of many silver bullets that will bring it to heel.

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Even by your miserable standards that is astounding gibberish.

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I note that you direct your considerable intellect towards addressing the issue in question and genuinely seek to engage in the discussion rather than shovelling out pointless trivia.

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In what way(s) is the the EU behaving as a spoilt chid? Barnier had/has a clear negotiation position authorised by all 27 governments.

To adopt your style: What is this mysterious slush fund of which you speak?

Mr. Barnier (and his ilk) are extremely well dressed. It's May (and her ilk) who are stark staring naked.

I don't know where to start with that. Gibberish.

Or that. You should really visit a doctor you know.

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I thought a rejection of central planning, bureaucratic decision-making structures and the monopoly of power was good thing?

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It depends on what those central planning structures do. If they standardise trade regulation so that you can have integrated supply chains across 28 countries or make cross border scientific research more feasible, that's not bad thing. I think many take for granted the international fluidity (amongst EU nations) that has been built up over the decades, and don't appreciate the enormous pointless bureaucracy that will be reintroduced if we leave. It's an unnecessary step backwards on the basis of illusory gains.

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Interestingly, I have not met one single European person who is of the opinion that the UK will be better/stronger/more competitive/a better neighbour as a result of Brexit. In Europe there is an almost universal opinion that the UK has made a catastrophic ****up by listening to lunatics and liars like Farage and Johnson.

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Well the vote has been cast and counted and democracy dictates we now leave, the country has been in difficult situations before and will again, so we should accept the decision and make the most of what we have now and work for a better UK, even if this means short term pain. Division with the nay Sayers continuing their pointless path does the country a disservice. Those that disagreed with the BREXIT decision need to get over themselves, those old enough to remember the lost vote to leave in the seventies had little choice but move on. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years we might join again, likely with promises of endless riches....if the EU survives!

Re: Just when you'd thought......
 

Nigel Farage is on record prior to the referendum as saying if the vote was 52-48 for remain, he would push for a second referendum as it would be "unfinished business"

With the same margin the other way, why should remainers get over themselves and accept what Farage said he wouldn't?

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I hate this line of argument. In the 70s the vote was to be part of something it was progressive; now it's dismantling something, which other nations are only to keen to replicate. The vote was wafer thin and based on both poor and misleading information. I think there is huge rationale for a second vote. Brexit people don't want it, because they know they will lose. It's easy to say give it another 20-30 years, but that will impact a generation and change the nature of the country. Brexit would not be the end of Britain, but if it is to happen it should happen for the right reasons and on an informed vote.

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Devolution of power rather than consolidation of power is a better for human agency.

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'Vote again and again until you get it right' - it's the EU way.

But I still think Britain will be the last country to leave the EU, because they'll still be arguing over Brexit terms when all the other countries have just walked out.

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Not when we've got the Brexit Bulldog over there kicking ass and taking names.

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Since when has NF been an authority on anything?

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Bingo. The future is decentralized, and the EU is a dinosaur that believes it can keep those pesky mammals from taking over even as the dark clouds of asteroid ash come rolling over the horizon.

I mean, seriously: in a world of VR, 3D printers and basement bioengineering, what's the benefit of being told what to do by people thousands of miles away? Why would anyone want that, unless they're a power-crazed politico who expects to be the one who's telling other people what to do?

We're racing towards a time of change that will make the early years of the Industrial Revolution look like the Teddy Bear's Picnic. Big states are rapidly going to become big liabilities.

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When the vote was cast to join ( before my time ) was it based on the current status quo? I don't think so.....time to move on chum.

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Well, he did play just a little bit of a role in Brexit although that might just be a rumour.

Are you saying he's an idiot? That might explain a lot. :nod:

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I'm saying its a done deal, time to move on, unite, whatever. The dog is dead....shall we get another dog in the future....perhaps, but let's leave it awhile. For now it's just us alone, we shall keep the lead and the memories, the dog basket and the travel cage...just in case. Throw the food, the bowl, perhaps a cat next time?

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One proper vote would suffice.

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Not if the devolved power rips up opportunity and decreases wealth.

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Easy for you say, you've already jumped ship. And it certainly doesn't seem iike a "done deal". Using your metaphor, it seems like a dog's breakfast.

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If I recall, Ireland had another vote to join and on the second attempt, accepted it. Ffs, how many chances do you want? If it is just 49.9 v 50.1, should we go and vote again?

The job is done, let the elected and the civil servants get on with it without having their hands tied.

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Yes, but we're not there yet. In another few decades, with a fully globalised world, it may well be time for decentralisation, but right now we trade in blocks and Britain is a minnow to the US or China. In terms of humans rights and healthcare, the EU is at the forefront.

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The UK has indeed been in difficult circumstances in the past, but at least for the last 400 years or so it has survived because of the sovereignty of Parliament over despostic forces such as the Monarchy and Rupert Murdoch. (And idiotic Tories)

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Ireland made the right choice. Clever people, they would be mad to leave. Can you imagine Ireland right now outside the EU? What would be the benefit?

I think the first vote should have been some kind of qualified majority 60/40, 55/45, some kind of margin to reflect true commitment to undoing 40 years of economic integration. However, given what's happened, a simple confirmation of the majority, even 50.001% would be satisfactory.

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Just out of interest, how are you directly affected? Do you own property in another EU country? Do you directly employ people from another EU country, perhaps you are planning to live and work in Belgium? perhaps you're a euro sponger, I really don't know your circumstances, I haven't said how I voted, i did, and it all happened a week before I flew here, it cost me $200k in the drop in exchange rates, I can't undo the vote and neither can you. Just live with the consequences, adapt and move on.

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Recommendations - EU-UK negotiations

But some of them didn't move on, did they?

And it took a court case for our elected representatives to have their say on Article 50. Will it take another to hold the government to account?

Also, the Great Repeal Bill which will transfer EU law into UK law will give Ministers the right to change any of those laws without Parliamentary oversight. Is that 'letting our elected representatives get on with it'?

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well the Leavers certainly thought that "we" should.

The civil servants surely have to do the heavy lifting, but the elected less so according to Mrs. May. (the Cabinet is not elected, the House of Commons is).

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I'll certainly adapt if it happens, but right now it hasn't happened, and there's a slim chance that what I view as a misinformed retrograde decision can be averted.