Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
Mar 30th 2015, 7:28 pm
#46
me/moi
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
It really is like the Advanced Calculus example. You can argue that public funding should be made available, but then it's a case of the SN snowflake really is incredibly special and should be stretched well beyond capability.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:31 pm
#47
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
That's not the point. It's simply not logical that loading the challenges of a second language is going to have a neutral effect on an SN learning ability - despite what Fred de McGill has concocted in his research.
It really is like the Advanced Calculus example. You can argue that public funding should be made available, but then it's a case of the SN snowflake really is incredibly special and should be stretched well beyond capability.
It really is like the Advanced Calculus example. You can argue that public funding should be made available, but then it's a case of the SN snowflake really is incredibly special and should be stretched well beyond capability.
Oh, BE. YOu are giving me the giggles today.
Of course, the fact that this current system works really really well for a bunch of parents had nothing do with it. oh no. no. not at all.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:32 pm
#48
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
Yeah, no. NOt a moral crusade. It's already happening in BC like I said.
BUt I notice you don't deal with the issue - which is that kids are being weeded out of FI, for whatever reason, and ended up in English - such that English has a higher number of SN kids. That's weird and worth re-jigging the program for imo.
why are you trying to claim anyone is forcing FI on all kids? No one said that. I did not say that. That's silly, you're exaggerating.
IMO a better question is: why are so many kids dropping out of FI.
Why aren't there more supports in place to help them stay?
BUt I notice you don't deal with the issue - which is that kids are being weeded out of FI, for whatever reason, and ended up in English - such that English has a higher number of SN kids. That's weird and worth re-jigging the program for imo.
why are you trying to claim anyone is forcing FI on all kids? No one said that. I did not say that. That's silly, you're exaggerating.
IMO a better question is: why are so many kids dropping out of FI.
Why aren't there more supports in place to help them stay?
Mar 30th 2015, 7:33 pm
#49
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
so basically, no one has any evidence the research is wrong but the research is wrong because it seems illogical to you based on your assumptions.
love it.
love it.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:33 pm
#50
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
Yeah, no. NOt a moral crusade. It's already happening in BC like I said.
BUt I notice you don't deal with the issue - which is that kids are being weeded out of FI, for whatever reason, and ended up in English - such that English has a higher number of SN kids. That's weird and worth re-jigging the program for imo.
why are you trying to claim anyone is forcing FI on all kids? No one said that. I did not say that. That's silly, you're exaggerating.
IMO a better question is: why are so many kids dropping out of FI.
Why aren't there more supports in place to help them stay?
BUt I notice you don't deal with the issue - which is that kids are being weeded out of FI, for whatever reason, and ended up in English - such that English has a higher number of SN kids. That's weird and worth re-jigging the program for imo.
why are you trying to claim anyone is forcing FI on all kids? No one said that. I did not say that. That's silly, you're exaggerating.
IMO a better question is: why are so many kids dropping out of FI.
Why aren't there more supports in place to help them stay?
As I've said, FI is tough. It's not just French. English skills suffer in the beginning too.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:34 pm
#51
me/moi
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
Her example is simply an illustration of a basic point which, it appears, everyone else on the thread intuitively understands.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:34 pm
#52
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
You're right, you have never said that FI is forced on anyone (other than by parents who wish it for their children). I thin you're right that FI probably does have a smaller proportion of SN kids, which by logic would suggest that English only schools will have a higher proportion of SN kids. Personally I think this is still a price worth paying to have my kids taught in a language that we can support at home and that is universally understood on the West Coast.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:37 pm
#53
Magnificently Withering
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
But why should she have to leave the school because she has learning issues? Oak, what you are saying aligns with what the article is saying - that kids with any kind of difficulties end up getting pushed out of FI into the English track, with those schools therefore forced to have most, if not all, of the SN kids.
How is right, or fair?
How is right, or fair?
I will grant that there is a higher proportion of students with an IEP in the English track than in FI. And I started my previous comment with an acknowledgement that the FI program is effectively academically self-selecting. But I disagree that this is necessarily a Bad Thing.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:41 pm
#54
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
You're saying kids are being weeded out. I'm saying parents are likely taking the view that their child is struggling with FI, and would be better served in English. Not all SN kids, but some. Not just SN kids either- there are kids without SN that leave the FI system too.
As I've said, FI is tough. It's not just French. English skills suffer in the beginning too.
As I've said, FI is tough. It's not just French. English skills suffer in the beginning too.
What assumption(s) are pushing that belief?
1. Is it because the FI school has fewer resources for kids who are struggling?
2. Is it because English schools have more assistants, etc. for kids who are struggling>
3.Is it because parents are assuming that FI is part of the problem?
4. Is it because the FI stream assumes FI is part of hte problem?
Everyone here seems to be acknowledging that kids leave FI. Good, so we can agree on that.
But we don't have any evidence that kids will then do better in English than they would have if they had been offered the proper supports to stay in French.
If a kid is struggling with a learning disability in French, and the french school doesn't have an EA etc to help, and the English stream does, then of course the kid is going to do better in English because they have more support.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:41 pm
#55
me/moi
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
That's a different issue. A bit like the grammar school issue in the UK. Then the solution is for uniform state education, which would be the fairer system.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:43 pm
#56
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
This is exactly the mentality that drives so many kids out of FI and into english stream schools. Thank you for proving the article is correct. I wonder why the school didn't fight to keep her? Hang onto her? Make things work for her? My school (english only) does that.
FWIW, in BC there is now a push to force FI schools to be more inclusive of SN children, provide extra support etc so those kids aren't forced out of their school to make them 'happier' read "less of a drain on time/resources so parents can have their fake-private school FI experience"
I know not every FI parent thinks that way.
FWIW, in BC there is now a push to force FI schools to be more inclusive of SN children, provide extra support etc so those kids aren't forced out of their school to make them 'happier' read "less of a drain on time/resources so parents can have their fake-private school FI experience"
I know not every FI parent thinks that way.
My children's school does, indeed, have a diminishing roll in higher grades (it's a 1-8 school). But that is due, mostly, to people moving away rather than to people moving to English-stream schools within the same board. And because it is almost impossible for a child to enter the FI stream if they have not been in FI previously, except for a limited number of "late immersion" students in Gr5, it's an inevitable consequence that the year group is smaller in Gr8 than it is in Gr1.
I fundamentally and vehemently disagree that the FI program is necessarily elitist - it is certainly not in the way it is implemented in this school district. "Gifted Program" specialist schools, on the other hand, that's a whole different kettle of fish.
Mar 30th 2015, 7:44 pm
#57
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Mar 30th 2015, 7:47 pm
#58
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
From the article:
While Conan’s story may resonate with many parents, research suggests pulling a child from French immersion is not always the solution. “These kids who struggle in school, they do just as well in an immersion program as similar children in a non-immersion program,” says Fred Genesee, a leading researcher on dual-language education at McGill University. “The additional challenge of doing all this in a second language doesn’t seem to be harder for them than doing it in a first language. At the same time, they become bilingual.” In effect, if a child is struggling with math in French, the problem might simply be with math, regardless of the language.
“If French immersion is really that good, let’s offer it to everyone. Let’s put it in every school,” says Campbell, the teacher. “The fact that we don’t do that says something about what the cachet of the program really is.”
While Conan’s story may resonate with many parents, research suggests pulling a child from French immersion is not always the solution. “These kids who struggle in school, they do just as well in an immersion program as similar children in a non-immersion program,” says Fred Genesee, a leading researcher on dual-language education at McGill University. “The additional challenge of doing all this in a second language doesn’t seem to be harder for them than doing it in a first language. At the same time, they become bilingual.” In effect, if a child is struggling with math in French, the problem might simply be with math, regardless of the language.
“If French immersion is really that good, let’s offer it to everyone. Let’s put it in every school,” says Campbell, the teacher. “The fact that we don’t do that says something about what the cachet of the program really is.”
Mar 30th 2015, 7:48 pm
#59
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
Do get a grip. No child is ever "forced out" of FI. Would you rather have an inflexible system fail some children because that way it's "fairer" for everybody? It sounds like it from your comments.
My children's school does, indeed, have a diminishing roll in higher grades (it's a 1-8 school). But that is due, mostly, to people moving away rather than to people moving to English-stream schools within the same board. And because it is almost impossible for a child to enter the FI stream if they have not been in FI previously, except for a limited number of "late immersion" students in Gr5, it's an inevitable consequence that the year group is smaller in Gr8 than it is in Gr1.
I fundamentally and vehemently disagree that the FI program is necessarily elitist - it is certainly not in the way it is implemented in this school district. "Gifted Program" specialist schools, on the other hand, that's a whole different kettle of fish.
My children's school does, indeed, have a diminishing roll in higher grades (it's a 1-8 school). But that is due, mostly, to people moving away rather than to people moving to English-stream schools within the same board. And because it is almost impossible for a child to enter the FI stream if they have not been in FI previously, except for a limited number of "late immersion" students in Gr5, it's an inevitable consequence that the year group is smaller in Gr8 than it is in Gr1.
I fundamentally and vehemently disagree that the FI program is necessarily elitist - it is certainly not in the way it is implemented in this school district. "Gifted Program" specialist schools, on the other hand, that's a whole different kettle of fish.
I don't even know what to say to your second comment because it just makes no sense. WTF? Failing? wuh? *shakes head*
Anyway.
Everyone likes it just the way it is, working for their kids. I get it. I disagree, I think FI is a problem and needs to be re-jigged. Happily BC is looking to do that and I'm sure we won't be the only province
Mar 30th 2015, 7:50 pm
#60
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Re: Just say 'NON" the problem with French Immersion
Anecdotal evidence for the win, bitches!
