ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

I was so shocked at the cost of vehicle insurance here in BC that I nearly took a flight straight back to the UK.

I've calculated that vehicle insurance is three times what I paid in the UK. I'm confused as to why it's so high? here in BC we enjoy lower autotheft and statistically less accidents than the UK. I've heard that if you're unfortunate enough to have a blame worthy accident, you may have to pay the costs of the claim back to ICBC.
Has anybody had any luck reducing vehicle insurance to an acceptable level?
:confused:

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Do you use an alternative insurer for the option element? Canadian Direct have worked out roughly 50% cheaper for me. I guess I'm still paying double what I paid in the UK, but the value of my vehicles are considerably more here.

ICBC only take $50 or so p/mth for each of my cars, which isn't so bad.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

But B.C. residents don't get much snow and the scenery is so nice

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

How does that bit work??

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Just take basic coverage from ICBC, and the optional stuff from a company such as Canadian Direct. It's often far cheaper, and you've more scope to tailor your premiums to suit your pocket or desired coverage/level of risk.

http://www.canadiandirect.com/Auto/Bc.aspx

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

There are private insurers that offer competitive rates to people with a good driving records. Canadian Direct, BCAA and Coast Capital are three. However, they only offer the optional insurances. You might save a few hundred bucks a year on this.

[edit: I'm not quick enough.]

For basic insurance you are stuck with ICBC. The only thing you can do to reduce the cost is to get them confirmation from your UK insurer (in the form that ICBC want) that you have had x number of years at-fault accident free driving. Otherwise drive carefully and the premiums do drop over time if you do not have a claim. At the moment they drop 5% for each claim free year.

If you do have a small fender-bender where you are at fault you can chose to pay the cost of the repairs instead of claiming on your insurance. This can be preferable to losing your no-claims discount.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

tried doing this when we arrived but was not eligible until we'd held our licences for a longer period of time. I will however look into that again as we've had our BC licences for almost two years now. Thank you for the help

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Think you have it bad in BC? You should try Ontario ... car insurance here costs 4 figures!:ohmy:

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Not bad for the youngsters though, they get a better deal than their UK counterparts generally speaking.
My youngest (18) is driving a 2.5 V6 Probe and my eldest (20) is driving a 5.7 V8 truck and both can afford the insurance. I'm guessing that they would be limited to a 1 ltr Nova or similar in UK for probably more money.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

I do find ICBC confusing, being that it's publicly owned. Health Insurance BC is publicly owned because it offers some clear advantages, one being that everyone pays the same premium. With ICBC, there are no real "fairness" advantages such as that to speak of. It's not like you pay more MSP if you go bungee jumping, so it would make sense if they made it so everyone paid the same. It would still be daft though and I do think private companies are usually a better option, providing there's sufficient competition and lack of price fixing.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

It is a different kind of rating. Everybody starts off at the same level so the premium you pay ends up being based on your driving record, and you are not lumped into a rate class. In this sense it is fairer. In the UK the premiums for young drivers can be prohibitive, but why should a young but careful driver have to pay several thousands on pounds a year, or even be priced off the road, just because others are idiots?

Insurance is just as expensive in the provinces that have private insurance providers. The private insurers in BC are cheaper for optional insurance but then they get to cherry pick their customers. It is easy to be cheap if you only insure drivers that don't make claims.

My beef with ICBC is not so much with insurance premiums, but with the quasi judicial function it has as an arm of the state. For example, it is the people at ICBC that get to decide if someone on a TWP needs a BC license. However, their front line people just don't seem to have the training necessary to make an appropriate determination and you can get two completely different answers to the same question from two different offices - or even two different people within the same office. This is a particular worry because ...

There is an attitude amongst ICBC staff that as they are a quasi judicial arm of the state they can't be wrong. Even when they are wrong they will prove they are not wrong. They play the "can you afford to challenge our high priced lawyers?" game too often. Particularly so when they have to defend the indefensible.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Either it's a tax, or it's insurance. Currently it's some half way mish mash.

ICBC's remit should be limited to determining the requirements that insurance should meet rather than selling it. The cover could easily be provided by agents on the open market who will do a more efficient job than ICBC. Same goes for booze and gambling for that matter; why the province is involved in these things I've no idea.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Cash?

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Sure, but they could easily get more cash from licensing and taxing those industries than they do from the current unaccountable inefficient state ran bureaucracies.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

No argument from me.

There is also a political function. Just before the 2001 election ICBC suddenly found they had made loads of money. They sent everyone a $100 rebate on their premiums. "Look how well we run ICBC," claimed the hugely unpopular NDP government, "just like we run the rest of the economy."

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Yeah, I know it is how it is. I do understand the fairness argument with ICBC but I suspect the average premium here is greater than the average premium where insurance is handled by the private sector.

Still, if I had my way the liquor control board would definitely be gone as that really doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than union placation. And why do liquor stores have tips jars.... grrr!

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Commonsense polices for a commonsense British Columbia. :thumbup:

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

That's right... ;)

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

It is a triumph for stupidity over common sense. :)

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

When I bought a new car car in the states, without any no claims as I'd only had a motorbike, my full comp coverage was $750 per year.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

It's high time that hard working british columbians had a voice to enable that victory to happen.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

I used to live in the same condo building as Gordon Campbell. Is he still around?
He lived on a much higher floor...

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Stealth tax it is!:thumbdown:

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

ICBC is actually a crown corporation and has a board of directors. the whole system is based on merit for good driving. It is a completely different system than the UK and those moving here having had competive rates in the UK will be in for a shock.

The higher rates are more to do with liability protection for the driver (north america is much more litigious that the UK). I always found it odd when I switched from a piece of crap Sunfire (worth a few grand) from about 900 a year to a 35 k Audi at around 1600 per year.

All those prohibitive groups they have in the UK based on your age and teh type of vehicle you drive are not factors here, the insurance is more evenly distributed, but the downside is that those at the bottom end see no benefits. I think it's a fairer system overall.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

I don`t agree with that part at all. The "awarding points for risk factors" enables one to tailor one`s payments by not utilizing such risk factors (high powered vehicle, vehicle likely to be stolen, etc.)

I appreciate that that means that young drivers will be "punished" but to punish all for the choices of others doesn`t seem fair to me at all.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Doesnt explain why insurance rates in the even more litigous US are a fraction of canadian costs, especially when the added factor of US medical costs is also factored into the post accident costs.

Of course, its a smallish market which doesnt help.

Is it a stealth tax? No I dont think so, but then I dont know if it operates at a profit or not. Even if it does, any money it makes is money that isnt raised elswhere with other taxes anyway, so it makes no difference in my mind, it cost the government $Xm a year to run a province, and it will raise that money one way or another regardless.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

ICBC also charge lower premiums to new drivers than they would otherwise get, subsidised by other drivers resulting in higher premiums to experienced drivers.

From my experience of ICBC, they are pretty useless when an incident occurs. Who gets the blame makes no difference to the adjusters, ICBC are paying out anyway. I would not be surprised if some did not get settled over coffee in the lunchroom!

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

depends which side of the coin you are on. I can afford a fancier car here but granted entry level vehicels are more. As someone already noted, there are plenty of good younger drivers who are penalized as they are lumped into the "under 25 they must be bad" category. Why should a bigger German car be more expensive to insure in the UK than a UK model? If i work nights why should i pay more than someone who works during the day? What about where you live? Park in a garage vs not in a garage. the uk model is all calculated around payouts and there are standard rates for losing a leg etc.

At the end of the day, when you look at all costs associated with motoring, such as road tax, insurance, MOT, fuel, etc, I doubt there's much in it.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Interesting article (extract) from The Tyee:


ICBC seems pretty typical of most insurance companies. But what about those low premiums paid by B.C. drivers? The answer is that ICBC has lower costs than private firms.

Since it enjoys a monopoly on 'basic' automobile insurance in B.C., the Crown corporation does not need to expend large sums on advertising to attract customers. And because it is owned by the B.C. government, ICBC pays neither federal nor provincial taxes (with the exception of insurance-premium taxes to Victoria).

With lower operating costs than private insurers, ICBC therefore has a lower 'operating loss,' and so can charge lower premiums. ICBC's low rates and profitability benefit countless British Columbians.

The average B.C. motorist, according to the Consumers' Association's study, pays $1,324 for insurance annually. That's $390 less than what Albertans pay and a whopping $1,059 less than Ontario drivers. B.C. businesses benefit in two ways: first, their employees' wage and salary demands are dampened by lower-than-market auto-insurance costs; and second, their own fleet insurance and transportation costs are lower than those faced by competitors in other provinces.

The provincial government also benefits from ICBC's profitability. First, because Victoria has adopted generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP), which includes Crown corporations in the province's bottom line, ICBC's retained-earnings reduce B.C.'s total debt. Second, the Crown corporation's annual operating profits help to boost provincial revenues, thereby contributing to a 'balanced' or surplus budget. And third, ICBC collects more than $400 million annually in fines and revenue for the province and operates 'Road Safety programs,' at no cost to Victoria! (The $100 million-plus annual cost of these activities is paid by ICBC.)

http://thetyee.ca/Views/2005/11/03/ICBCSuccess/

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Cos they are much more expensive to repair after an accident innit?


Isnt everything insurance wise driven by statistics and actuarial input?

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Makes it sound like a good thing. Anything is better than Ontario insurance rates though innit.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Oh dear lord. wtf are they on?

ICBC insurance is no such thing, it's a tax.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

I don't usually quote union spokespeople, but this is one other side of the story.

http://cope378.ca/icbc-shell-game-al...eneral-revenue

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Whilst philosophically I am against this kind of state monopoly. I wouldn't object too much if they were at least open about it.

That $500m surplus should be spent improving the roads as the union guy says. Though 'employee investment' is just code for 'pay rises' which is what they actually really want.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

It is all very opaque. It seems that ICBC make exactly how much the government of the day want them to make. They may not pay taxes but they do transfer hundreds of millions of dollars to the provincial government every year.

I understand why ICBC came into existence. I hear stories of the what the auto insurance market was like in BC in the 60s and 70s: sky high premiums and private insurers who wouldn't pay out on a timely basis, or at all if they could get away with it. That said, better regulation rather than nationalization (provincilaization ?) of the insurance function would surely have been better.

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Yes, I agree. In an ideal world, I'd like to see ICBC's remit change to setting the standards for insurance and regulating the private companies that provide it. It could be funded by a levy on those same companies.

Which reminds me, my sticker runs out next week so I'd best do something about it!

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

It doesnt seem to in ontario based on the quoted average premiums!

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

good point I suppose. But what about premium rates in teh UK coz you work in the entertainment sector?

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

ICBC also funds road safety initiatives, such as counter attack. the money was used to pay overtime to cops rather than it coming out of general revenue. They also funded a number of specialized traffic units doing seat belt checks and what have you.

It is indirect taxation but at least its not all going in deep pockets as is the case with private insurance companises

edit - just noted that this thread is from January

Re: ICBC... Stealth tax?
 

Statistically proven to be in more accidents...ask an actuary. I doesnt mean if you are an entertainer that you are bound to have more accidents, but on average entertainers have more accidents, so they all get tarred with the same brush.

That's how insurance rates work... driven by statistics. In canada though its murkier I think because of the way the discrimination legislation is framed.