HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
Oct 12th 2013, 5:50 am
#16
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
So pray tell, when might I be vulnerable?
Simple: Between Christmas and Dec 31
The new budgets usually go into effect in January, thus the indecent haste to dump excess baggage.
I remember a case where this guy got his Christmas gift rather early. He got the letter saying he was persona-non-grata just as he was leaving to go home after a company Christmas party. Santa Claus simply showed up early for him
Simple: Between Christmas and Dec 31
The new budgets usually go into effect in January, thus the indecent haste to dump excess baggage.
I remember a case where this guy got his Christmas gift rather early. He got the letter saying he was persona-non-grata just as he was leaving to go home after a company Christmas party. Santa Claus simply showed up early for him
Oct 12th 2013, 6:59 am
#17
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
http://www.getsmarteraboutmoney.ca/e...x#.UljzCjBBlYA
For those of you who have blind faith in their company's pension plan, here is a real eye opener
5 minutes of your time well spent to watch
Of course, if you are in government employ, at whatever level, you don't have a care in the world
For those of you who have blind faith in their company's pension plan, here is a real eye opener
5 minutes of your time well spent to watch
Of course, if you are in government employ, at whatever level, you don't have a care in the world
Last edited by montreal mike; Oct 12th 2013 at 7:05 am.
Oct 12th 2013, 11:08 am
#18
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
http://www.getsmarteraboutmoney.ca/e...x#.UljzCjBBlYA
For those of you who have blind faith in their company's pension plan, here is a real eye opener
5 minutes of your time well spent to watch
Of course, if you are in government employ, at whatever level, you don't have a care in the world
For those of you who have blind faith in their company's pension plan, here is a real eye opener
5 minutes of your time well spent to watch
Of course, if you are in government employ, at whatever level, you don't have a care in the world
True we have a certain degree of more protection than others but we can still get laid off.
Oct 12th 2013, 3:29 pm
#19
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
Who cares? It is funded by taxpayers at large
I was not talking about job security
Oct 12th 2013, 11:39 pm
#20
Slightly Canadian
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland
Posts: 10,129
Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
One of the reasons, among many, why older workers -- those in the mid-fifty age bracket -- suddenly get the chop, is the poorly funded company pension plan.
I have been told by an actuary that companies do not always put away reserves to provide for future payouts for all workers. In some respects this logical because who the hell sticks around for 40 years?. However for those loyal older workers who have been around for 20 plus years, and who are not inclined to change jobs, or simply can not, they might naively look forward to a comfortable retirement age 65.
But this means an added corporate financial burden down the road. So why not simply eliminate them from the payroll and be done with it?
And many such pension plans are poorly funded to begin with.
Secondly, in a non-union environment, why hang on to a high priced older person when a young cheaper tiger can fill the bill? lt is a fallacy to assume companies will always value older experienced loyal workers. Not so. What prevails above all is the bottom line via trimmed down corporate budgets. These matters get resolved at the annual board of directors get-togethers where budgets are voted upon, without undue concern for the human impact.
Isn't capitalism great?
I have been told by an actuary that companies do not always put away reserves to provide for future payouts for all workers. In some respects this logical because who the hell sticks around for 40 years?. However for those loyal older workers who have been around for 20 plus years, and who are not inclined to change jobs, or simply can not, they might naively look forward to a comfortable retirement age 65.
But this means an added corporate financial burden down the road. So why not simply eliminate them from the payroll and be done with it?
And many such pension plans are poorly funded to begin with.
Secondly, in a non-union environment, why hang on to a high priced older person when a young cheaper tiger can fill the bill? lt is a fallacy to assume companies will always value older experienced loyal workers. Not so. What prevails above all is the bottom line via trimmed down corporate budgets. These matters get resolved at the annual board of directors get-togethers where budgets are voted upon, without undue concern for the human impact.
Isn't capitalism great?
Fact is that none of us has a job for life and being made redundant is something many of us will have to face. Possibly more than once. It happened to me exactly a year after I started my first job in Canada and was, at the time a devastating experience. And I got treated relatively well - 3 months payout, outplacement services etc. Hindsight and subsequent research indicates that I probably could have got more and would I would certainly be better prepared if it happened to me again. An evening in the bar in the US with our HR Director recently was useful in that regard.
Oct 13th 2013, 12:07 am
#21
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Joined: Nov 2012
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
There is some genuinely useful advice in your earlier posts but you getting a bit ranty-chip-on-your-shoulder now. Of course evil corporations will let expensive older workers go. So do evil government beaucracies, both here and in the UK. No new news here surely? The majority of private sector employees here, I imagine, don't have a corporate pension plan but rather, have a RRSP. Sure, the employers contributions to the RRSP are more for the better paid, but there isn't neccessarily a direct link between pay and age, nor is there I think a terribly large incentive for the evil corporation to terminate the mature employee just to reduce the 3-7% the pay into the RRSP.
Oct 13th 2013, 1:46 am
#22
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
There is some genuinely useful advice in your earlier posts but you getting a bit ranty-chip-on-your-shoulder now. Of course evil corporations will let expensive older workers go. So do evil government beaucracies, both here and in the UK. No new news here surely? The majority of private sector employees here, I imagine, don't have a corporate pension plan but rather, have a RRSP. Sure, the employers contributions to the RRSP are more for the better paid, but there isn't neccessarily a direct link between pay and age, nor is there I think a terribly large incentive for the evil corporation to terminate the mature employee just to reduce the 3-7% the pay into the RRSP.
Surely expensive older workers are vulnerable as they can be replaced with younger cheaper ones but that is not the real issue here. The saving of 3-7% on pay to go to an RRSP is the minor consideration.
Point is that company pensions are poorly funded. One would expect that reserves would be put aside during a certain periods of a worker's employment and not doing so is sometimes justified as some workers will be gone anyways within 10 - 15 years, for example.
But what of the others who stay on expecting to be there until normal retirement?
For some over age 50 the company will need to put aside significant reserves, in effect playing 'catch up', so an economic calculation is made and it can be that dispensing a years worth of severance will, in the long run, turn out to be far far cheaper.
And corporations are not by definition evil, but they may need to be somewhat ruthless as their concern is for their shareholders and thus they are not duly concerned for their
workforce.
I can't say I blame them.
Please re-read my original post number 14. And if this comes across as a rant it is only because I am trying to get a very important point across regarding poorly funded pensions cost and liabilities.
Judging by your comment I must have failed to do so.
Last edited by montreal mike; Oct 13th 2013 at 2:07 am.
Oct 13th 2013, 2:48 am
#23
slanderer of the innocent
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,695
Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
The whole retirement system needs a major overhaul.
I highly recommend "Pound Foolish" by Helaine Olen. It's about the US retirement crisis but a fair bit of it applies to Canada as well.
I highly recommend "Pound Foolish" by Helaine Olen. It's about the US retirement crisis but a fair bit of it applies to Canada as well.
Oct 13th 2013, 3:29 am
#24
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/...nsion_plan.asp
maybe this link will help get my point across
this concept is not generally understood by the public at large but it can have serious consequences
maybe this link will help get my point across
this concept is not generally understood by the public at large but it can have serious consequences
Oct 13th 2013, 11:27 pm
#25
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
She does not waste any time. No small talk. You are presented a letter which essentially says your services are no longer needed and you are terminated forthwith. The reason given is downsizing, corporate reorganization, mumbo jumbo just like that. This 'personalized' letter is nothing more than the effort of their legal counsel and has no doubt been replicated over and over again.
You are then told to go pack your stuff and when you return to your dept. you are greeted by two burly security people, equipped with boxes, they help you pack you stuff, you then return your keys or access pass, you are escorted to the street, you hail a cab, and off you are gone. Mercifully no one was around so at least you were spared the ordeal of explaining it all to your employees and co-workers.
You are then told to go pack your stuff and when you return to your dept. you are greeted by two burly security people, equipped with boxes, they help you pack you stuff, you then return your keys or access pass, you are escorted to the street, you hail a cab, and off you are gone. Mercifully no one was around so at least you were spared the ordeal of explaining it all to your employees and co-workers.
Being fired and being laid off aren't necessarily the same thing, but anyway there are specific legal standards that have to be met to terminate someone's employment. In Alberta:
Options for employer to terminate employment
Section 55
(1) Unless subsection (2) applies, an employer may terminate the employment of an employee only by giving the employee
(a) a termination notice under section 56,
(b) termination pay under section 57(1), or
(c) a combination of termination notice and termination pay
under section 57(2).
(2)
Termination notice is not required
(a) to terminate the employment of an employee for just cause,
(b) when an employee has been employed by the employer for 3 months or less,
(c) when the employee is employed for a definite term or task for a period not exceeding 12 months on completion of which the employment terminates,
(d) when the employee is laid off after refusing an offer by the employer of reasonable alternative work,
(e) if the employee refuses work made available through a seniority system,
(f) if the employee is not provided with work by the employer by reason of a strike or lockout occurring at the employee’s place of employment,
(g) when the employee is employed under an agreement by which the employee may elect either to work or not to work for a temporary period when requested to work by the employer,
(h) if the contract of employment is or has become impossible for the employer to perform by reason of unforeseeable or unpreventable causes beyond the control of the employer,
(i) if the employee is employed on a seasonal basis and on the completion of the season the employee’s employment is terminated, or
(j) when employment ends in the circumstances described in sections 62 to 64.
Employer’s termination notice
Section 56
To terminate employment an employer must give an employee written termination notice of at least
(a) one week, if the employee has been employed by the employer for more than 3 months but less than 2 years,
(b) 2 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 2 years or more but less than 4 years,
(c) 4 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 4 years or more but less than 6 years,
(d) 5 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 6 years or more but less than 8 years,
(e) 6 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 8 years or more but less than 10 years, or
(f) 8 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 10 years or more.
Termination pay
Section 57
(1)
Instead of giving a termination notice, an employer may pay an employee termination pay of an amount at least equal to the wages the employee would have earned if the employee had worked the regular hours of work for the applicable termination notice period.
(2)
An employer may give an employee a combination of termination pay and termination notice, in which case the termination pay must be at least equal to the wages the employee would have earned for the applicable termination notice period that is not covered by the notice.
(3)
If the wages of an employee vary from one pay period to another, the average of the employee’s wages for the 3-month period immediately preceding the date of termination of employment is to be used to determine the employee’s termination pay.
Section 55
(1) Unless subsection (2) applies, an employer may terminate the employment of an employee only by giving the employee
(a) a termination notice under section 56,
(b) termination pay under section 57(1), or
(c) a combination of termination notice and termination pay
under section 57(2).
(2)
Termination notice is not required
(a) to terminate the employment of an employee for just cause,
(b) when an employee has been employed by the employer for 3 months or less,
(c) when the employee is employed for a definite term or task for a period not exceeding 12 months on completion of which the employment terminates,
(d) when the employee is laid off after refusing an offer by the employer of reasonable alternative work,
(e) if the employee refuses work made available through a seniority system,
(f) if the employee is not provided with work by the employer by reason of a strike or lockout occurring at the employee’s place of employment,
(g) when the employee is employed under an agreement by which the employee may elect either to work or not to work for a temporary period when requested to work by the employer,
(h) if the contract of employment is or has become impossible for the employer to perform by reason of unforeseeable or unpreventable causes beyond the control of the employer,
(i) if the employee is employed on a seasonal basis and on the completion of the season the employee’s employment is terminated, or
(j) when employment ends in the circumstances described in sections 62 to 64.
Employer’s termination notice
Section 56
To terminate employment an employer must give an employee written termination notice of at least
(a) one week, if the employee has been employed by the employer for more than 3 months but less than 2 years,
(b) 2 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 2 years or more but less than 4 years,
(c) 4 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 4 years or more but less than 6 years,
(d) 5 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 6 years or more but less than 8 years,
(e) 6 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 8 years or more but less than 10 years, or
(f) 8 weeks, if the employee has been employed by the employer for 10 years or more.
Termination pay
Section 57
(1)
Instead of giving a termination notice, an employer may pay an employee termination pay of an amount at least equal to the wages the employee would have earned if the employee had worked the regular hours of work for the applicable termination notice period.
(2)
An employer may give an employee a combination of termination pay and termination notice, in which case the termination pay must be at least equal to the wages the employee would have earned for the applicable termination notice period that is not covered by the notice.
(3)
If the wages of an employee vary from one pay period to another, the average of the employee’s wages for the 3-month period immediately preceding the date of termination of employment is to be used to determine the employee’s termination pay.
Oct 13th 2013, 11:32 pm
#26
Grumpy Know-it-all
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 8,928
Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
The problem is that it's too late to do it. Max. payout from CPP is $12,000-odd a year which combined with OAS is not enough to live on and this assumes you get the max. - which would mean you had contributed to CPP for 40 years at the maximum (at the moment a salary of more than $50,000-odd). Not likely the first few years you would be anywhere near that and the average salary in Canada is only $29,000 anyway.
If they were to raise CPP contributions (which is likely to happen, the provinces are trying to come to an agreement now) then it wouldn't help for retirees for decades. And the baby boomers are retiring now. The US on the other hand did make reforms to Social Security back in 1986.
If they were to raise CPP contributions (which is likely to happen, the provinces are trying to come to an agreement now) then it wouldn't help for retirees for decades. And the baby boomers are retiring now. The US on the other hand did make reforms to Social Security back in 1986.
Oct 13th 2013, 11:40 pm
#27
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Re: HELP ... I JUST GOT FIRED
This did happen but i will not go into more details and I would guess this scenario has been enacted hundreds of times and will happen in future.
The business of being escorted off the premises should not come as a shock
All the paperwork, stuff to be signed, severance pay negotiation, RRSP details and so on and so forth, all that can wait. It all follows in due course
As for termination notice, that is not an issue as it is paid later on in addition to severance.
A company is not obliged to keep a person, who is 'persona non grata', on its premises, if it chooses not to.
The business of being escorted off the premises should not come as a shock
All the paperwork, stuff to be signed, severance pay negotiation, RRSP details and so on and so forth, all that can wait. It all follows in due course
As for termination notice, that is not an issue as it is paid later on in addition to severance.
A company is not obliged to keep a person, who is 'persona non grata', on its premises, if it chooses not to.
Last edited by montreal mike; Oct 13th 2013 at 11:46 pm.
