Guns
May 30th 2014 | 1:12 am
#136
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
Re: Guns
I'm afraid I disagree, Iain. Guns were invented as an instrument of death - an instrument more efficient than swords and battleaxes. Some modern guns have found more specialised uses in shooting at non-living targets, but the gun, as a concept, remains a tool rooted in the idea that it is a more effective way of despatching enemies than poking holes in them or cutting bits off them.
As it happens, I quite enjoy shooting. I've shot for game birds (in the UK, not here), I've taken part in competitive shooting with rifles and handguns, and a good day out blasting clays is excellent fun. But, in every instance, the instructor/organizer/rules etc are very, very clear. Don't point a gun anywhere other than down the range or at the ground; certainly don't point it at anybody or anything unless you intend to do it harm. To do so is foolish and dangerous, even with a .22 target pistol.
As it happens, I quite enjoy shooting. I've shot for game birds (in the UK, not here), I've taken part in competitive shooting with rifles and handguns, and a good day out blasting clays is excellent fun. But, in every instance, the instructor/organizer/rules etc are very, very clear. Don't point a gun anywhere other than down the range or at the ground; certainly don't point it at anybody or anything unless you intend to do it harm. To do so is foolish and dangerous, even with a .22 target pistol.
Guns, even target-shooting guns, are designed to wound, maim or kill. If it is the intent of an unbalanced, or just fundamentally unpleasant, person to wound, maim or kill others, then a gun is one of the most efficient ways of achieving that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/wo...hina.html?_r=0
Last edited by iaink; May 30th 2014 at 1:15 am.
May 30th 2014 | 1:26 am
#137
Magnificently Withering
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,908
From: Oakville, ON
Re: Guns
So, should we ban archery too while we are at it, and crossbows.
Lets ban SUVs too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/wo...hina.html?_r=0
Lets ban SUVs too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/wo...hina.html?_r=0
Your straw men - bows and arrows, SUVs - are just that: straw men. If you want to play that kind of reduction-to-absurdity game, at least do it justice: why not ban all air travel, because some terrorists once hijacked some aeroplanes and used them to kill people? I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here anyway. Are you arguing that anybody should be able to go to a big showroom on the edge of town and buy the gun of their choice, as they can with a car today?
May 30th 2014 | 1:29 am
#138
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,188
Re: Guns
I think you're all missing the point here. Its septics shooting septics, if they want to live (excuse the pun) with all the horror that comes from their gun laws, then who gives a naff?
May 30th 2014 | 1:35 am
#139
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
Re: Guns
My secondary point is that there are so many guns out there already that even if not another gun was sold from now on, it would make little difference to anyone determined to acquire one. It's illegal? Big deal, so is planning a murder.
Is there a problem in the US? Clearly there is, and this despite the fact there there are already federal and state laws governing usage. Is the problem the guns, or the people with the guns, or the whole nature of society there? Thats not so clear. One thing that is clear is that the US has to want to change, and the politicians have to respond to that rather than the lobby groups and vested interests that are out there. No amount of hand wringing or logical analysis from outside is going to make any difference.
Is there a problem in Canada? Outside of the gangs, who are not exactly great respecters of law and order, I dont see it if there is.
Last edited by iaink; May 30th 2014 at 1:42 am.
May 30th 2014 | 1:47 am
#140
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 40,070
From: Ontario
Re: Guns
And no one yet has addressed the very simple point that you can pass as many laws as you like, it wont make much difference to someone who has decided they are going to kill someone else. After all, that is already pretty illegal, the gun law aspect is kind of like doing a mafia boss for tax evasion.
A difference is in the killing of people with whom one is mildly irritated; attempt to punch them to death and you'll get tired and they'll hit back, attempt to stab them and they may run away, shoot them and that's that.
Another difference is to the killing of bystanders; I was once in a bar when a fight broke out, one fellow swung wildly, missed his target and hit a woman at the bar, her man piled in and it was like the wild west. We were in Gilroy, CA, a rural bar but one with a gun check. In the absence of the gun check half the people in the bar would be dead by now. Bullets are less targetted than fists.
Take the guns away and the problem's done.
May 30th 2014 | 1:54 am
#141
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
Re: Guns
It might not make any difference to the truly determined killer of a specific person.
A difference is in the killing of people with whom one is mildly irritated; attempt to punch them to death and you'll get tired and they'll hit back, attempt to stab them and they may run away, shoot them and that's that.
Another difference is to the killing of bystanders; I was once in a bar when a fight broke out, one fellow swung wildly, missed his target and hit a woman at the bar, her man piled in and it was like the wild west. We were in Gilroy, CA, a rural bar but one with a gun check. In the absence of the gun check half the people in the bar would be dead by now. Bullets are less targetted than fists.
Take the guns away and the problem's done.
A difference is in the killing of people with whom one is mildly irritated; attempt to punch them to death and you'll get tired and they'll hit back, attempt to stab them and they may run away, shoot them and that's that.
Another difference is to the killing of bystanders; I was once in a bar when a fight broke out, one fellow swung wildly, missed his target and hit a woman at the bar, her man piled in and it was like the wild west. We were in Gilroy, CA, a rural bar but one with a gun check. In the absence of the gun check half the people in the bar would be dead by now. Bullets are less targetted than fists.
Take the guns away and the problem's done.
However, this thread stemmed from comments made by John Oliver regarding inaction in the face of so many school shootings, and lets face it, no one in US politics or in the media is getting stirred up by the ridiculous murder rate, its the mass killings that prompt any calls for action.
Last edited by iaink; May 30th 2014 at 1:57 am.
May 30th 2014 | 2:28 am
#142
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: Guns
I often hear people saying that it's easy to nip over to the US to get a gun. Yes, maybe, if you don't mind taking the chances on associating with criminals dealing with guns and the issues getting the guns back across the border.
Of course you can try a homemade bomb, going to the trouble of getting the ingredients, risking your own safety and maybe arousing suspicions to the extent you get caught...then, if you get that far, working out what to do with it, where to place it and actually place it without getting caught.
It's all a lot more difficult than firing off a few rounds before anyone realises what hit them.
Is there a problem in Canada? Outside of the gangs, who are not exactly great respecters of law and order, I dont see it if there is.
Having said that, there was a random shooting at a car here just a couple of weeks ago.
May 30th 2014 | 2:57 am
#143
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
Re: Guns
How so? You go rent an SUV and go find a bus line up. Bingo, you get your 15 minutes of noteriety and die in a hail of police bullets.
Same end result, no need to find a gun.
And there are random stabbings too. (Thats three different cities in a month found in 30 seconds on google)
Its the people, not the guns. Take the guns away and the people are still ****ed up.
Same end result, no need to find a gun.
Having said that, there was a random shooting at a car here just a couple of weeks ago.
Its the people, not the guns. Take the guns away and the people are still ****ed up.
Last edited by iaink; May 30th 2014 at 3:02 am.
May 30th 2014 | 3:06 am
#144
Slob
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,345
From: Ottineau
Re: Guns
I am in a pretty rural area. Many of my neighbors hunt. The ones that come out from the city to their cottages by the river generally dont.
I dont think there are any hard and fast rules regarding who hunts. Many of the members of the local "fish and game club" (shooting range) hunt, and many of those are actively involved in conservation efforts to ensure that there are still things for them to shoot in seasons to come.
Many of the members of the club have no interest in killing anything and shoot only targets. One thing they all seem to have in common is a desire to see weapons used responsibly.
You just cant paint everyone the same in this debate.
And no one yet has addressed the very simple point that you can pass as many laws as you like, it wont make much difference to someone who has decided they are going to kill someone else. After all, that is already pretty illegal, the gun law aspect is kind of like doing a mafia boss for tax evasion.
There are a lot of guns out there, and a lot of people use them for pleasure. Passing laws is not going to change either of those facts or stop guns getting into the hands of the very tiny proportion of the population that we should be concerned about. The gun genie is out of its bottle in north america and no amount of hand wringing is going to put it back Im afraid. Deal with the people that should not have guns more effectively, rather than criminalizing the responsible majority.
I dont think there are any hard and fast rules regarding who hunts. Many of the members of the local "fish and game club" (shooting range) hunt, and many of those are actively involved in conservation efforts to ensure that there are still things for them to shoot in seasons to come.
Many of the members of the club have no interest in killing anything and shoot only targets. One thing they all seem to have in common is a desire to see weapons used responsibly.
You just cant paint everyone the same in this debate.
And no one yet has addressed the very simple point that you can pass as many laws as you like, it wont make much difference to someone who has decided they are going to kill someone else. After all, that is already pretty illegal, the gun law aspect is kind of like doing a mafia boss for tax evasion.
There are a lot of guns out there, and a lot of people use them for pleasure. Passing laws is not going to change either of those facts or stop guns getting into the hands of the very tiny proportion of the population that we should be concerned about. The gun genie is out of its bottle in north america and no amount of hand wringing is going to put it back Im afraid. Deal with the people that should not have guns more effectively, rather than criminalizing the responsible majority.
May 30th 2014 | 3:08 am
#145
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
<sarcasm off>
May 30th 2014 | 3:16 am
#146
Realist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 24,667
From: UK
Re: Guns
However, this thread stemmed from comments made by John Oliver regarding inaction in the face of so many school shootings, and lets face it, no one in US politics or in the media is getting stirred up by the ridiculous murder rate, its the mass killings that prompt any calls for action.
May 30th 2014 | 3:19 am
#148
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: Guns
Not a particularly high rate of "success" either with too many factors beyond your control.
Tends not to attract the headlines in the same way if that was the aim of the nutcase.
And there are stabbings too
May 30th 2014 | 3:30 am
#149
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
Re: Guns
It would be a better use of resources than focusing entirely on identifying the many innocent individuals that happen to own a gun.
Last edited by iaink; May 30th 2014 at 3:50 am.
May 30th 2014 | 3:31 am
#150
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
