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Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by not2old
(Post 12052057)
Was your success as a result of your 'Grammar school' education?
Would you have been as successful if you had not gone to Grammar school, if not - could you picture what may have turned out? Do you believe that Grammar educated children are more succesful than those that never went to one? Are Grammar school educated snobs? You have to remember that university entrance was strictly limited when I went to school and it was grant supported for a kid like me who received a full local authority grant. This was sufficient to keep me, if not in luxury, then comfortable without additional parental input. So, would I have been successful had I not attended grammar school? What I can say is that in South East London where I lived there was one comprehensive that had a good reputation and made the news because many of its sixth form students did regularly enter university. However, this was outside my catchment area and each of the two alternatives had bad reputations and records of low achievement. I don't doubt that the truly gifted student would have achieved but that wasn't me. I tended to be mid level and I had to work hard to achieve the grades that I did. I strongly suspect that if I had chosen not to enter university I would have become something in the biochemical industry, in fact I had an interview for a job in this field running parallel to the university application. Had I chosen not to go to grammar school, then I strongly suspect that I would have gone into business as a painter and decorator with my father, in fact this was hinted at while I was at school. Success is very subjective. I have been happy in my chose career. I wouldn't say I've been a high flier but I have had my moments. I think that we could have made a very good living as decorators and I would very likely have been just as happy. What I will say is that attendance of the grammar school gave me the choice. At the age of 18 I could have been a decorator or a university student, had I not attended a grammar school, I almost certainly would noy have achieved academically and the choice would have been limited. Of my friends who underwent comprehensive education, none achieved high enough grades to go go to university and they weren't any less intelligent than me. So do I think that children who went to my grammar school were more successful than those who didn't? Without doubt, those who did, achieved higher academically. As a run-of-the-mill average student, I needed to be pushed to achieve. I am lazy by nature and needed to be pushed and there was a never ending pressure to achieve. I really enjoyed the competitive nature of the school. Never at the top, I did enjoy moving up the rankings and took failure quite seriously. My contemporary relatives who did not go to university appear to have done equally well, and a cousin who when to my grammar school but not university, also appears to have done well, but I think their success results from their personalities, I might not have done so well. Are grammar school educated kids snobs? Well I don't know about today. My friends, and they became my circle of friends, came from a wide variety of backgrounds, but generally more financially well off than we were. I wouldn't have called all of them snobs, but some knew their place, and it was above mine, so some might have been described as snobs. So, would I have sent my daughter to a grammar school ? The answer is yes, had there been one available. In the event we sent her to a private school until she, herself, wanted to leave. This has been a mixed decision. On the one hand she developed a work ethic that can be directly sourced from her days at the private school, on the other hand she was subject to a highly snobbish atmosphere that was not present at the comprehensive she eventually ended up in. I suspect she would have done just as well at any school, but she has that persistence. Would I send her to university today? The answer is yes, but I would fund it completely, I think it's unacceptable for sudents to leave a university with a life crippling debt of tens of thousands of pounds. But, would I, as a poor boy, go to university today? The answer is no. The debt I'd accrue from the age of 18 would be far better spent paying to buy experience whether it's learning to fly, starting a business or becoming a gas engineer, welder or plumber. By expanding university placements to the level where governments can no longer offer free higher education to those who can't afford it, has ensured that higher education has now become a financially selected choice. 'Ahh..' I hear you say, the old chestnut of 'why should those who don't go to university fund those that do?' raises it's head. Well that would be a question for society as a whole. |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by viajero
(Post 12052197)
Well I did say *mostly*.
Yes, a young violinist would need to be taught some discipline to practice enough and power through particularly difficult passages. A swimmer could be taught an exercise regimen to maximize his or her stamina. But natural talent (and in the case of athletes, body shape) does the heavy lifting by an overwhelming margin, the luck of the draw we all carry in our DNA, and I believe much of the research supports this view. If this sounds defeatist, note that I do believe that everyone has some sort of natural talent through which a livelihood can be built. Perhaps the education industry can make itself useful by focusing its efforts on helping kids figure out those tasks of which they are exceptionally adept. |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by viajero
(Post 12052197)
Well I did say *mostly*.
Yes, a young violinist would need to be taught some discipline to practice enough and power through particularly difficult passages. A swimmer could be taught an exercise regimen to maximize his or her stamina. But natural talent (and in the case of athletes, body shape) does the heavy lifting by an overwhelming margin, the luck of the draw we all carry in our DNA, and I believe much of the research supports this view. If this sounds defeatist, note that I do believe that everyone has some sort of natural talent through which a livelihood can be built. Perhaps the education industry can make itself useful by focusing its efforts on helping kids figure out those tasks of which they are exceptionally adept. |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by viajero
(Post 12052197)
Well I did say *mostly*.
Yes, a young violinist would need to be taught some discipline to practice enough and power through particularly difficult passages. A swimmer could be taught an exercise regimen to maximize his or her stamina. But natural talent (and in the case of athletes, body shape) does the heavy lifting by an overwhelming margin, the luck of the draw we all carry in our DNA, and I believe much of the research supports this view. If this sounds defeatist, note that I do believe that everyone has some sort of natural talent through which a livelihood can be built. Perhaps the education industry can make itself useful by focusing its efforts on helping kids figure out those tasks of which they are exceptionally adept. |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12052240)
A few thought provoking questions, and a post that deserves a considered response.
You have to remember that university entrance was strictly limited when I went to school and it was grant supported for a kid like me who received a full local authority grant. This was sufficient to keep me, if not in luxury, then comfortable without additional parental input. So, would I have been successful had I not attended grammar school? What I can say is that in South East London where I lived there was one comprehensive that had a good reputation and made the news because many of its sixth form students did regularly enter university. However, this was outside my catchment area and each of the two alternatives had bad reputations and records of low achievement. I don't doubt that the truly gifted student would have achieved but that wasn't me. I tended to be mid level and I had to work hard to achieve the grades that I did. I strongly suspect that if I had chosen not to enter university I would have become something in the biochemical industry, in fact I had an interview for a job in this field running parallel to the university application. Had I chosen not to go to grammar school, then I strongly suspect that I would have gone into business as a painter and decorator with my father, in fact this was hinted at while I was at school. Success is very subjective. I have been happy in my chose career. I wouldn't say I've been a high flier but I have had my moments. I think that we could have made a very good living as decorators and I would very likely have been just as happy. What I will say is that attendance of the grammar school gave me the choice. At the age of 18 I could have been a decorator or a university student, had I not attended a grammar school, I almost certainly would noy have achieved academically and the choice would have been limited. Of my friends who underwent comprehensive education, none achieved high enough grades to go go to university and they weren't any less intelligent than me. So do I think that children who went to my grammar school were more successful than those who didn't? Without doubt, those who did, achieved higher academically. As a run-of-the-mill average student, I needed to be pushed to achieve. I am lazy by nature and needed to be pushed and there was a never ending pressure to achieve. I really enjoyed the competitive nature of the school. Never at the top, I did enjoy moving up the rankings and took failure quite seriously. My contemporary relatives who did not go to university appear to have done equally well, and a cousin who when to my grammar school but not university, also appears to have done well, but I think their success results from their personalities, I might not have done so well. Are grammar school educated kids snobs? Well I don't know about today. My friends, and they became my circle of friends, came from a wide variety of backgrounds, but generally more financially well off than we were. I wouldn't have called all of them snobs, but some knew their place, and it was above mine, so some might have been described as snobs. So, would I have sent my daughter to a grammar school ? The answer is yes, had there been one available. In the event we sent her to a private school until she, herself, wanted to leave. This has been a mixed decision. On the one hand she developed a work ethic that can be directly sourced from her days at the private school, on the other hand she was subject to a highly snobbish atmosphere that was not present at the comprehensive she eventually ended up in. I suspect she would have done just as well at any school, but she has that persistence. Would I send her to university today? The answer is yes, but I would fund it completely, I think it's unacceptable for sudents to leave a university with a life crippling debt of tens of thousands of pounds. But, would I, as a poor boy, go to university today? The answer is no. The debt I'd accrue from the age of 18 would be far better spent paying to buy experience whether it's learning to fly, starting a business or becoming a gas engineer, welder or plumber. By expanding university placements to the level where governments can no longer offer free higher education to those who can't afford it, has ensured that higher education has now become a financially selected choice. 'Ahh..' I hear you say, the old chestnut of 'why should those who don't go to university fund those that do?' raises it's head. Well that would be a question for society as a whole. Have you never come across an "bright" intelligent person that didn't go to a grammar school? Aren't more young people now going to University than ever did under the old grammar school system? |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by johnwoo
(Post 12052695)
You are presupposing that a child who at the age of eleven, doesn't get into a grammar school is incapable of a University Degree, and are looking at a purely me me point of view. Under the old Secondary Modern system, a child was spit out at age 15, with no opportunity to gain any sort of academic qualifications.
Have you never come across an "bright" intelligent person that didn't go to a grammar school? Aren't more young people now going to University than ever did under the old grammar school system? If you followed the thread more closely, you will see that Not2old asked for my personal views concerning my education so it's really not surprising that the post appears to be from a 'me me' perspective. You will also note that I described a comprehensive close by that regularly sent kids to university, thereby, even in those days, many were not 'spit out at 15'. You will also note that the experiences described were of an age where, as I stated, HE was strictly limited and fully understand that more kids now attend university. I have met really bright kids who never went to grammar school, but life was difficult for them. Apprentiships involving day release and evening courses leading to HND etc stretching into their twenties. The world was full of them. |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12052704)
Not so.
If you followed the thread more closely, you will see that Not2old asked for my personal views concerning my education so it's really not surprising that the post appears to be from a 'me me' perspective. You will also note that I described a comprehensive close by that regularly sent kids to university, thereby, even in those days, many were not 'spit out at 15'. You will also note that the experiences described were of an age where, as I stated, HE was strictly limited and fully understand that more kids now attend university. I have met really bright kids who never went to grammar school, but life was difficult for them. Apprentiships involving day release and evening courses leading to HND etc stretching into their twenties. The world was full of them. I didn't go to a grammar school, and my secondary school education ended at age 15 with no qualifications, and had to go out and find a job, with no aspirations for higher education, it wasn't expected of me. I was one of those apprentices that went the HND route. I was fortunate to get into the HND program not all apprentices did, and by chance work for a company that encouraged higher education. |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 12052601)
Nah; to be a "natural talent" at something just means starting that thing when you are a very young child.
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Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by Tirytory
(Post 12052659)
You do talk an alarming amount of nonsense..
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Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by johnwoo
(Post 12052727)
I didn't go to a grammar school, and my secondary school education ended at age 15 with no qualifications, and had to go out and find a job, with no aspirations for higher education, it wasn't expected of me...
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Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12052704)
Not so.
If you followed the thread more closely, you will see that Not2old asked for my personal views concerning my education so it's really not surprising that the post appears to be from a 'me me' perspective. You will also note that I described a comprehensive close by that regularly sent kids to university, thereby, even in those days, many were not 'spit out at 15'. You will also note that the experiences described were of an age where, as I stated, HE was strictly limited and fully understand that more kids now attend university. I have met really bright kids who never went to grammar school, but life was difficult for them. Apprentiships involving day release and evening courses leading to HND etc stretching into their twenties. The world was full of them. I also know that in the early 60's anyone with A's wanting to go to University had to have top marks & that there were few places & not everyone that made it there actually graduated. I also know that many high marks A's that applied, never got their place to go to University That not all Grammar school children (that I know of) with O's or A's ended up in career jobs, from Trades, Technicians, Engineering apprentices, Nursing, Accouning or Administration positions. My wife & her elder Brother both went to Grammar school, their middle sister went comprehensive, exited without O's not even the 'School leavers secondary school certificate', yet she was the brightest & smartest of the three of them. She excelled in life & career beyond expectations of a comprehensive educated child, my wife & her brother both dull & poor achievers by comparison. I also have met, worked with as well as socialized with those from both sides - from comprehensive educated that matured, continued on to graduate degrees, many who became CEO's, CFO's, scientists, engineers, teachers, medical practioners, heads of whatever - then the Grammar school ones, university educated that achieved similar status positions, with some that never made it that far, ending up (like most people that make the world go round) as your average jane & joe living & working with everyone else. Makes you wonder how many by percentage of Grammar school grads made the decision to emigrate;) The local plumber we use in his 50's is grade 10 educated, trade school, nets over $100k/yr, lives in a million dollar home, holidays 3x year... happy as larry Many others & more like him in different walks of life ;) Do folks living in Canada care about whether the UK will bring back 'Grammar schools', or who on BE went to one, or who of the BE members went to University? |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by viajero
(Post 12052767)
The research supports my "nonsense" more than your apparent blank-slate hypothesis.
Since you quoted swimming as an example we'll continue with that. It's pretty impossible to be able to tell at 11 what child will go on to be an Olympic star, since the body is growing, puberty yet to hit, and the stroke your child may ace at now will change the next year as they grow and the amount of hours your child will need to practice grows too. So because your child isn't showing star quality at the young age of 11 doesn't mean that they should just quit because only the best will do or that they won't go on to develop what is needed. Even if your child never holds a world record in 50m fly does that mean that the time and investment has been of no value? Of course it doesn't. Swimming has huge benefits for a child's development, the work ethic, and discipline not to mention the benefits to their future adult health that the training infers is huge. The idea that you should limit a child's potential and class them as a failure because they don't pass an arbitrary exam at a certain age is ridiculous and your analogy was flawed. Swimming is not just about who gets gold but how each individual swimmer grows and gets better and even watching the Olympics the commentary was not just about the medal but about which swimmer had achieved a personal best, and how young they were (22) and their future potential.. Really education should be about helping each and every child achieve their personal best, not just a lucky few. Like I said you do talk a lot of nonsense. |
Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by viajero
(Post 12052197)
Perhaps the education industry can make itself useful by focusing its efforts on helping kids figure out those tasks of which they are exceptionally adept.
Originally Posted by viajero
(Post 12052197)
If this sounds defeatist, note that I do believe that everyone has some sort of natural talent through which a livelihood can be built.
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Re: Grammar schools
Originally Posted by BristolUK
(Post 12052987)
How did you get into film directing? ;)
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Re: Grammar schools
I went to a Grammar school, later it turned private/independent whilst I was in sixth form whereas my brother went to the Comprehensive.
Our lives are not much different. |
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