Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Illegal shock collar dog owner gets £2,000 fine

We have one for our dog. It's not the fence type, it has a hand held remote control which we can buzz or zap her with (variable strength).

I'd say it's definitely been of benefit (main thing being I can't walk her using a normal leash) but are these things really cruel?? Is she accumulating pent-up anger which she will retaliate with one day?

I'm sat here, writing this, with the TENS machine zapping the crap out of my shoulder and arm (which feels great) so the collar must be ok, right?

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Have you tried turning it up and putting it on yourself? They hurt like hell, and as somebody that has been involved in dog rescue for years, I've seen way too many dogs end up burnt/scarred and emotionally damaged from those bloody awful things.

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of them! I'm in favour of that old fashioned thing called 'training your dog'.

Put it this way, would you use an electric shock on your child for discipline?

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Of course they are cruel, using pain to train a dog?!?!? :thumbdown:

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I've used mine on myself.

I rescued an abused border collie 12 years ago and lived in a rural area with lots of sheep and livestock around. 12 months of diligent back yard training got nowhere when it came to off-leash time on footpaths. The sight of anything moving sent her on a mission that no amount of persuasion, coercion or training seemed to solve.

2 weeks with a training collar and she had her freedom back. After an initial couple of zaps all I've ever needed is the buzzer. What's better for a high energy dog like a collie? - it's life spent on a lead because you can't trust it to be safe, recall or not chase everything in sight, or some discipline that gives them an understanding about what's required of them, and the freedom to run their legs off and not get into trouble?

Best thing I ever did for her. She's 15 now and still runs alongside the ATV for a 5km walk every day.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

My OH did this before we put it on the dog. She tried it a few times and thought it wasn't too bad, in fact each time she shocked herself her reaction was to laugh out loud.

Similarly, I've had a couple of EMG tests this year, where the neurologist inflicted many electric shocks on my arms. My reaction also was to laugh out loud each time. Some of the low amplitude shocks were barely noticeable. For the big shocks, though, I neither thought they were painful or that he was being cruel to me.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Yep, tried it too. Doesn't hurt, just a deterrant. I'm certain it doesn't hurt as much as running into the road and getting run over for example.

Electric fences, they hurt, especially if you're climbing over one when it get's you.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

We got one for our dog.
The shock has a scale of 1-10, and we've never used more than 3. To be honest, the sound is usually enough to stop the behaviour. I tested up to 3 on my arm to see how it felt, and it's definitely uncomfortable.

We got it because he would bark and go crazy whenever anyone walked past the house (we lived on a corner lot). It was always excitement rather than aggression (and he gets plenty of exercise, before anyone comments).

I can see why people would think they are cruel, but IMO, it depends on the owners intent. It broke my heart to shock him, but at times, there's simply no stopping him. We stopped using it after a week because it was no longer needed.
We plan to start using it again to enforce safe boundaries around the new house we're moving to, but we'll eventually get an invisible fence.

People need to accept that in the wild, dogs control each other with bites and nips. The shock collar, if used properly, works on the same basis.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I tested ours on my arm just now. I couldn't feel anything at settings 0.5 or 1. Setting 2 was a very mild shock, barely noticeable.

I could feel setting 3 a little more but still a very mild shock. Certainly weaker than the shocks I get from the TENS machine when an electrode is not stuck on properly (and a tiny fraction of the shocks the neurologist gave me that made me laugh).

I normally have it set to 2.5 when the dog is wearing the collar. If she doesn't respond to the buzzer, which is rare, she will respond to a zap at that setting which I can honestly declare is nothing more than a gentle stimulation that is instant in duration.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

If you feel you must resort to such a device, I would have a re-think as to why you want a dog in the first place.....:frown: There is no short cuts to training a dog....just a lot of time, patience and resolve....and kindness.

Away and wire yourself up to the mains.....:thumbdown:...and give your dog a grand stand view.....

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Oh, but dogs are people with 4 legs, they're members of the family, you should never raise your voice to one, or, heaven forbid give one a good kick up the arse.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

My dog is stupid. Seriously.

I don't think even a collar would work, but I would maybe try it. It took a year to stop barking at the vacuum hose, another to stop barking at black bin bags and a coat.

I don't think she will ever stop barking at passers-by, or chasing things. She has little-to-no recall.

Love her bits, she is so affectionate. She is a bundle of instinct and we can't seem to train or over-ride it, no matter how many hours of training or kindness we put in.

She is better than two years ago but I reckon she'll be 12 before she walks on a lead properly, and that's only 'cos she'll be too old and fat to do anything else!

Our other dog is good (so I know we can achieve results!) - well behaved, super intelligent, pretty good recall and still likes to bark at the doorbell but you can't have everything. He is a grumpy Victor Meldrew with the daft dog though.

The article at the beginning stated the collars were illegal in the guys area, so that is his issue, not whether he or us agree in that fact. ;)

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I got the dog I mentioned above in a malnourished state, with behavioural issues and at 3yrs old not even knowing her own name or what a toy was for. She'd been kept in a high rise and scavenged for food. Are you suggesting her life hasn't improved, despite needing to resort to a training collar to remove years of ingrained bad behaviour? You've obviously never had to deal with similar issues. Far easier to go to a pet store or breeder and start from scratch with a puppy, eh?

Watching your dog run down a road, oblivious to traffic, chase sheep or just run away because like she feels it's ok doesn't induce warm and fuzzy feelings. Sometimes, for their own wellbeing the means justify the method. The decision wasn't taken lightly without research and consultation.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

It's not the device that's barbaric, it's some of the people that use them. Yes your going to get idiots that set it to the highest setting and shock the dog, my daughters friend's mum used to let her kids shock the dog for any reason, they wondered why the dog kept running away.

What your supposed to do is set it on the lowest setting, and turn it up until you get a reaction - that reaction could be as little as an ear twitch.

I would use one on a particularly hyper/non listening animal if I had already tried everything else - complete last resort only.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I've just got two rescue dogs. One of them is a husky/mal and will probably never have recall, but otherwise he's a great dog. I've no intention of using an e-collar on him cos running off is in the breed - his life is on leash except at fenced dog parks and in the house.

The other is an aussie shepherd which is anxious and insecure - I wouldn't use an e-collar on him either. Not cos I'm necessarily opposed to them, but cos it would only make him worse atm.

I have to say though, I'm don't understand why you'd get a dog from a breeder when there are so many dogs that need homes at the city pounds or with the SPCA.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I agree, but it's a different topic. If you have young kids, you cannot take the risk of adopting a dog from the pound without knowing its history.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Actually, a shock collar in use by a skilled trainer can be a valuable shortcut in some types of training, saving considerable time. However, when being used by someone who doesn't know what they're doing it's easy to ruin a potentialy good dog. Some of the best trainers in the world are divided on this issue. I worked a couple of years training hunting retrievers in a kennel and though the owner had shock collarrs I never saw them used. The writer of the training book I liked best (of the half doz or so I found) was against them - called collar users 'fry cooks'. Personaly I feel it's a choice that should be tailored to the individual dog and the individual trainer. It's like force training (brainwashing your dog with physical pain/memory cues), and deserves some serious thought before you decide to do it to your dog.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Well said. :thumbup:

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

True. We did see a lot of psychotic looking rotties and the like up for adoption. But generally the SPCA will tell you if the dog is ok with kids, other dogs, cats etc. At least they did where I live.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

All these people that have tried the shock collar, did you actually put it on your throat? I have a rescue dog and have clicker trained him. I take him to class every week we do our home work every day and he is coming along nicely but slowly. Give them some time and patience and maybe keep them on a lead when they are around problematic situations and try clicker training. It really is a proud moment when you start getting results and your little buddy starts working with you out of love rather than fear. We live in a society that has to have every thing right now. Well dogs just don't work that way. Take a bit more time out of your day to work with your hairy friend rather than zapping the crap out of them.
And next time you have a bad day or are in a stressful situation imagine then getting an electric shock to help things along and see how much better you feel!

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Is this the internet forum equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la not listening la la la"?

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Yes, I've tried it on my throat, again, the "shock" is very similar to what I get from TENS machine (that I use for pain relief).

Just out of interest, have any of you guys who are against them tested one on yourself? How did it feel?

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

We have two dogs from breeders, one of them is one of those designer non-breeds, a deliberate hybrid. At the time of acquiring the dog I had an autistic person around the house and couldn't risk a dog that might react badly to odd behaviour. The hybrid dog came as advertised, calm in all circumstances. A dog with an unknown history was a risk I wasn't prepared to take. The other dog is of an uncommon type in Canada, not available from a pound.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

It's a choice thing isn't it. If one wants a dog, but one doesn't care what type of dog, then what you have suggested is fine. If one wants something specific, such a dog may not be available.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Yes, and it hurt like hell - nothing like the pleasant tingle from the TENS machine I used when giving birth!

I personally would never use pain to train a dog, jmo.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

The lowest settings don't 'hurt like hell', they tingle at best. Emotive phrases like that just suggest you've little experience of using them. An adrenaline pumped dog that's too excited to pay attention to a command certainly isn't bothered by the briefest use of a collar on an appropriate setting.

Tell me what you'd choose to do after a year+ of training and little success in removing unwanted behaviour. Collies in particular have obsessive/compulsive dispositions, it's a breed trait, which unfortunately doesn't make them easy pets to take care of, particularly if previous behaviour has gone unchecked for years. I've no qualms about using a device that ultimately improves the quality of life for a dog, for the sake of perhaps a few seconds of mild discomfort at the outset of training.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I think there's a common misconception that people use them as a punishment. I'm sure a few people do, but they are meant to be used as a deterrent ie/ you give them a warning sound when you see the cue. If they continue, they get a mild shock. The idea is to distract them- not to punish them.

In our experience, I've found it's worked really well when other methods have failed.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Sorry, but it *did* hurt like hell - please don't tell me how I felt. It was a very nasty shock that caused me to shout out, and throbbed for about an hour afterwards. I'm only 5ft, and weigh no more than 7.5 stone so perhaps it affected me more than you? Certainly 'tingle at best' wasn't my experience, and I should perhaps add that the one I used had a setting that went up to 8, and I only used it on number 3 so goodness only knows what it was like on the highest setting.

As I said above, I've seen dogs burnt and scarred from them, so I know the damage they can do. I'm sure you would use it responsibly, but there are plenty of people out there that don't. If they are so good, then why are they banned in so many countries and why are the Kennel Club calling for them to be banned in the UK as well?

Re: training, it would depend on the dog. Clicker training has often been successful on foster dogs we've had with severe behavioural issues as has gundog/whistle training.

As I've said above, this is *just my opinion*!

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Exactly.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I still wouldn't use any pain based method though. ;):D

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Because of emotive response.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Barbara Woodhouse would suggest a sharp slap to the snout I'm sure. Bit difficult though if your dog is heading to the hills or about to savage a little unfortunate kid.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

No way could I zap my puppy.. really she is just toooooo cute and cuddly:wub::wub:

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

When we were looking into purchasing the collar I remember we were thinking about the "fence" type but I just couldn't understand how the dog would figure out why she is getting zapped or what she had to do to stop it.

Come to think of it, I strongly believe they should ban the "fence" type - I can see that a dog could easily get confused or scared and end up with an injury like the ones you've seen. I'm also concerned as to why any of the zappers have a 'continuous zap' button - I've never used it and it worries me that it might stick 'on' or accidentally get pushed.

The remote zapper we bought has literally enabled us to keep and protect our dog following a very serious change in circumstances (she gets love and kindness in great abundance from us and is mostly trained with treats and other positive rewards). I'm not sure anyone else could do a better job looking after her and, with the open countryside and land we have here, she has the freedom and space that every border collie deserves.

Before the zapper she ran off a few times, wouldn't come back when called, and came back covered in nasty smelling stuff that was likely bad for her and our health. She has chased deer (she is so quick!) and there's so much wildlife around here, coyotes etc, we thought it was just a matter of time before she got into more trouble. With the zapper, and the change in behaviours it has enabled, we have almost no worries now, in that if we see her heading for trouble we can get her back to safety just by calling her or buzzing the collar (a buzz sound, not an electric zap) if she's wearing it.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

A good friend of mine has had gun dogs for many years that he has trained to an amazing level. No sign of a shock device. He did however invest in one the day he got an Akita which grew to 14 stone in weight. His excuse was that even though he had trained the Akita (not to the level as his gun dogs) he didn't relish the idea of having to seperate the Akita from whatever it was trying to rip the throat out of. I don't believe he ever had to use it but I can fully understand his point of view. Prevention is probably better than a dead sheep and a irate farmer emptying his shotgun into mans best friend!

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

If the Kennel Club are trying to ban them, I would say almost by definition they must be OK to use. That organisation strikes me as one of the most antedeluvian and blinkered groups of people I have ever come across. They have been so unbelievably slow to take any decisive action on inbreeding and congenital diseases amongst show stock, amongst many other issues, that I'd take anything they say on animal welfare with an ocean's worth of salt.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Agreed....tend to depend of common sense myself...and almost 40 years of having and training my own dogs. If I had to depend on such a device, I would give up having a dog in my life tomorrow!

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I've used several sections of The Koehler Method of Dog Training on problem dogs with good success and would recommend anyone who wants to use a shock collar on their dog read this book first. The corrections have to seem to come out of the clear blue sky - you don't want Towser to associate the sudden terror of a correction with you, it must seem like his behaviour alone caused it because you are the refuge he'll go to when it happens. The principles are the same for using shock collars and though I didn't use them I did learn how. Here's a scenario; you're out training and your dog breaks and won't stop for the whistle - you let him go a few secs then shock him. Towser does a cartwheel, (this isn't the collar you can buy at Petsmart), and when he stops seeing stars the first thing he hears is that old familiar whistle and after what's just happened he can't wait to get back to you and get the praise he deserves. Good boy. It doesn't work as a threat and should never be used as one. The trainer in that scenario may be doing that to a dog he can't stop from breaking using the standard check-cord method and he says to himself well it's day 3 and I'm using the collar so we still make some money here on this hammerhead. In any training the corrections must be effective or you're just punishing your dog for nothing and wasting everyone's time and possibly causing your dog to lose his life at some point. I used the hanging method of knocking a dog unconsious with a choke chain to stop him from snapping at kids, and the rubber hose across the snout to stop one attacking other dogs and in neither case did they know it was me causing that hell. It's tricky to pull stuff like that off so they don't know it's you doing it but it's vital they don't catch on. It's not as brutal as it sounds and after all, those are extreme corrections. Look at it this way, you're going to have a dog for 12 or 15 years and he or she will give you everything they have in return for your love and care so take the time to learn to train them to an acceptable standard. When they run under the bus or bite the child or maul another dog it's the owner who's responsible and by then it's too late to say 'I guess I could of trained him a little better'.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

A bit of tough love never hurt. Pity all the namby pambies can't see it these days.

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

Those 2 corrections from the Koehler book are extreme corrections for problem dogs and I found they worked well but I'd studied how to do it properly beforehand. Without that preparation I wouldn't of been able to make effective corrections - likely quite the opposite. Koehler has credentials up the yingyang; trainer for the US Army, Walt Disney Studios, lots of high profile stuff. His book has instructions on how to do basic obedience training but it was the section on problem dogs that made it unique. In a time when 'There are no bad dogs' was popular he had the nerve to say 'Some dogs are just thugs' and it's true but instead of just accepting that he devised a way of changing unacceptable behaviour. In the case of agressive dogs this can save their lives.
What sort of instructions come with a shock collar from the store? The professional ones my boss had were quite expensive at the time and came from a dog training supply company. I don't think any sort of shock collar was available from pet stores then, (about 20 yrs ago).

Re: Dog shock collars are "barbaric devices"?
 

I am not a dog trainer I have had two dogs and have trained both myself the first just with the help of another well trained collie and this time through classes and clicker training. At no point have I felt the need to use a shock collar and I have had some difficult times with them both. I do see how if you have a really serious issue with aggression or running away this method could be useful. What I don't agree with are people using choke chains, prong collars and shock collars as training methods from day one. Surely these are last resort pieces of equipment? I now live in Vancouver and I have noticed a real trend in these devices on dogs that really don't need them. I meet people walking puppies and have been told on numerous occasions that they attend puppy training classes where a choke or prong collar is how they are trained. This seems crazy to me! If you don't have time to train your dogs the old fashion way then pay someone to do it for you or don't get a dog. You wouldn't have kids then not take the time to teach them then reprimand them for not knowing.
I am not a tree hugger I worked in the horse racing industry in the uk for 10 years. The training of the horses is sometimes tuff and sometimes easy with the whip and the carrot but we always try the carrot first so why oh why would you begin with the whip with dogs??