Jerseygirl

Dobermans were not bred for fighting they were bred for guarding. Today the ears are cropped to make them look more intimidating and ferocious. IMO a dobe does not need to be made to look ferocious...it's muscular body, strength, speed, teeth and bark say it all. I had dobes for almost 20 years in the UK. To crop a dobes ears is cruel and unnecessary.:curse:

Novocastrian

I also find this odd. I'm 99.9% certain that when I researched breeds before getting Geordie there was no breed standard listed by CKC. The breeder we used also reinforced that point. Now, this was all back in 1999 so things may have changed.

But, as ever, I'm no expert, just a very happy border collie owner.

Louisecooke

A few points (as this is my favourite subject)

Ear cropping has been banned in the UK for over 100 years, so the KC can't be blamed for that one, you will not see it at all in the UK. Docking is AFAIK on the way out to all intents and purposes, and about time too.

Border Collies have only 'recently' been recognised as a KC registerable breed, not sure when exactly, but it may have been around the late 90's. They have a breed standard like any other registerable breed, applicable to them, which is actually very strictured if you know how to read breed standards

I have shown dogs for many years, including at Crufts many times. We were extremely pleased to get best dog in our breed at Crufts one year out of an entry of about 260 dogs, and we were complete no-bodies in the breed, so it can be done. As with any sport or hobby, it can look very strange to outsiders and they often jump to ridiculous assumptions

The BBC, while rightly exposing problems in SOME breeds, has chosen to castigate the whole showing community. They are also guilty of appalling double standards in that they sent the Blue Peter team to the Siberian Husky Club of Great Britain Aviemore rally, to show the dogs working, but these are the exact same dogs that will be in the showring at Crufts! Apparently once they put a show lead on they become a different animal

Anyway, if you wanted to have a look at our dog that won at Crufts, you can see him here, where you will also see that he is an accomplished sled dog too, and examplifies the current KC mantra of 'fit for function'

http://www.shaytaanhuskies.com/Fya/Fya.htm

Butch Cassidy

1) Dobes (like most dogs) were not ORIGINALLY bred as guard dogs, (And hereby follows a quote from Wiki, protection and guarding are NOT the same)Doberman Pinschers were first bred in the town of Apolda, in the German state of Thüringia around 1890, following the Franco-Prussian War by Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann. Dobermann served in the dangerous role of local tax collector, and ran the Apolda dog pound. With access to dogs of many breeds, he aimed to create a breed that would be ideal for protecting him during his collections, which took him through many bandit-infested areas. He set out to breed a new type of dog that, in his opinion, would be the perfect combination of strength, loyalty, intelligence, and ferocity. Later, Otto Goeller and Philip Gruening continued to develop the breed to become the dog that is seen today.
2) Are you suggesting that the cropping of say a Boxers ears is legitimate?


The UK Kennel club Standard was last updated in 1994, It appears that on reading the CKC and the AKC standards they are taken directly from the UK. Of course there is no guarantee of when the breed was officially recognised by the CKC. I agree that (unlike a majority of breeds) the Border Collie is still similar to the original stock BUT it is not immune to inbreeding and Health Defects.

As far as I was aware Louise Taildocking could ONLY be done by a Vet and fewer and fewer Vets were now willing to perform the 'operation'. If anyone wants to be made truly sick and see something totally barbaric find a vet (or vicious breeder) who is removing the tail from a schiperke (and I mean removing NOT just docking)

Jerseygirl

Louis Doberman bred dobermans to protect him...the Doberman didn't exist before this point...that's why he gave his name to the breed. Dobermans were bred to be guard dogs...he bred the dogs to protect him during his money collections. A dog bred for fighting is IMO a different animal. Dobes are my favourite dogs...maybe one day I will be lucky to have another Dobe own me.

Certainly not...I do not agree with ear cropping for any breed.

The4BellsLondon

I must say I have seen some appalling ear clipping her - well all are appalling, but some real hatchet / butcher jobs!

Was at the dog park with my 2 and my son the other day and we came accross a Shar Pei pup - bless it had no ears at all.

My dear boy (10) said to the chap "oh no did it have an accident or injure its ears?"

The chap said dead pan - "No that's how they look"

Theo looks at him and does the typical kid reaction..

"Uh nu huh!! Well why has that one over there got ears?? Your just cruel!"

I did have to walk away at this point - the chap just huffed off with Theo still saying loudly to me "But Mum, WHY do they do that it doesnt look nice and it must REALLY hurt?"

I must say the poor thing must have had wind rattling round its brain - it had nothing to protect its ear canal . . .

I know my Scoobs (p[art ridge part Dobie) can have problems with splits at the end of his ears, but he just wouldn,t be the same without them, they are soft and lovely and I can make them sit up in sill shapes (cruel yes - sorry - but great pics!)
But I cream them at the ends so they dont split unless he manages to catch them somewhere - usually from sticking his head somewhere it wasn't meant to go!

Any way - ear clipping - NO!

Louisecooke

I didn't know they did it to Shar Peis! I have to agree it looks awful, I'd never seen it before moving over here. I can't believe people do that to their little puppies

Mind you I learnt the other day that most Canadian men were circumsised as babies, so I suppose they are used to chopping of bits of skin!

Louisecooke

I must clarify that somebody TOLD me, I didn't look

Oakvillian

The BBC have said that their beef is effectively with the KC's attitude and apparent cruelty in some breed standards, rather than any particular issues with showing in general. Huskies, being working dogs, are bred for "operational effectiveness" - in a genuine working breed this has to take precedence over any ideal of conformation. Other breeds which used to work but now rarely do the work they were bred for (dalmatians and dachshunds spring to mind) do not have this safeguard against stupidity in the breed standard, so it's all about how they look rather than whether they have a decent quality of life.

My parents had a couple of black labradors - as pets, although a neighbour once said of the younger one that she'd make about the best gundog he'd seen, but my folks aren't into the huntin' shootin' fishin' lifestyle. Both were bought from supposedly reputable breeders. Both suffered to a greater or lesser extent with congenital deformities introduced to the breed to satisfy KC-mandated ideals of how they should look. Both were put down relatively young because their quality of life deteriorated to such an extent that they were in constant pain.

Not to mince words, I think the KC are a bunch of hypocritical a**holes who have only got off their backsides to address the cruelty they inflict on other creatures because organizations like the BBC have ridden the wave of public opinion and made a fuss about it.

Louisecooke

Oh I agree that something needs to be done to address the problems occurring in some breeds, and hopefully the KC will now start to do this (though really it should be the breeders themselves, they shouldn't have to be forced into it). With labs, I'm assuming the problem with yours was hip or elbow dysplasia which is rife in the breed, though that is down to breeders not health testing their stock before breeding. It could be greatly reduced in Labs and other breeds, as could any other hereditary disease if the KC would stipulate that it would only register pups from health tested parents. I can't see that ever happening though, as it would cost the KC money and as we all know KC stands for Ka Ching

Oakvillian

That's exactly my point. Both had hip dysplasia. Both came from breeders who had supposedly health-checked the parents and had certificates for n generations' worth of wonderfulness. But that's all utterly meaningless if the entire effect of the KC's breed standard is to encourage inbreeding of closely related former champions so as to meet some ideal of conformation which is not healthy for the dog.

IMHO it's not about the KC only registering pups from healthchecked parents, it's about the KC changing the way conformation is stipulated, managed and judged, so that a wider gene pool is encouraged and the kind of congenital difficulties due to generations of inbreeding are gradually overcome. It'll take years, and it'll take a radical rethink of the entire way dog showing is run. It'll probably take a new generation of people at the head of the KC, or a rival organisation that diminishes the throttlehold the UK's kennel club has on worldwide dog showing.

To anthropomorphise for a moment, if show dogs were people, the Kennel Club would have been sued out of existence years ago.

Alberta_Rose

oh cute baby dog!

I still can't envisage getting a replacement dog .......

Mistress Miggins

We have ended up with two chihuahuas, which are really quite infamous for inbreeding. The first is called Suzie Snowdrop, and she's an absoloute dote and as healthy as a wee flea, the second we ended up buying because we just couldn't leave her where she was. She's definitely inbread, with a big underbite (which you never see on a chi although we did wonder if there was pug but the vet said nope) and some crazy hips and odd joint movement.

The vet, after laughing at her in disbelief concluded she's a genetic misfit. Her name is Fugly, and we love her, because she fits in perfectly to our house. However, we would rather the dip shit breeder had never done that in the first place!!!!!!:curse: From what I have seen so far there are some terrible small breed breeders in Southern Alberta, who ought to be shot/ ashamed.

Rant over
Mrs M x

Purley

I saw a TV show from the UK that had picked out the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel as the breed to criticize because of the size of its head - something about its brain being squeezed. But it seems to me that they could have found many, many more breeds to complain about. I think they might have said something about Bassett Hounds and their tiny little legs nowadays as compared to the size and weight of their bodies. But I don't think they went into big dogs and hip displasia.

And, as someone said, ear cropping has absolutely no useful purpose. The only reason its done is because somebody thinks ears look better that way.

I don't know about tail docking today. It was about 30 years ago when I helped my friend dock tails on a litter of Airedale puppies. She used surgical scissors; the puppies were one or two days old and it didn't seem to bother them overly. Some of them squeaked and then went back to nursing. Maybe you can't do it yourself nowadays. But it wouldn't surprise me if you can. In Canada I mean.

Jerseygirl

I have a Cavalier....I think this breed was picked out because over the last 30 years these little dogs have become very popular in the UK. Until a Cav won crufts in the 70's it wasn't a well known breed. As a result there was a lot of inbreeding which caused several major health risks for Cavs. IMO breeding them with smaller and smaller heads...thus squashing their brain...is absolutely dreadful. I only wish some of these unscrupulous dog breeders could be punished for what they have done.