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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Maple Leaf (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/)
-   -   Coronavirus (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/coronavirus-930602/)

Almost Canadian Jan 25th 2022 6:40 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13090269)
Re-stating;

Amongst the never infected the the unvaxxed suffer higher illness/death than the vaxed.

Amongst the unvaxxed recovered, their new natural immunity appears to be at least equal to those who have been vaccinated. (Yes, that's in line with what I have heard in recent days).

The magic bullet comment does not follow from the above. First of all, vaccines are never "magic bullets" they are a means to reduce spread in a population. Second, had there been no vaccine, the numbers of illness/death would be far higher than they are (first statement). What we can say (consistent with my earlier post) is that those that gamble their health and burden the hospitals through their rejection of a vaccine, should benefit from decent immunity if they survive. I accept that natural immunity for unvaxxed survivors is better than low immunity for unvaxxed survivors, but in consideration of the non-survivors and the impact on healthcare, I don't see it as something to be celebrated or promoted.
Are you able to provide any logical reason why jurisdictions should treat those with vaccinations and those unvaxxed, but infected, differently?

Almost Canadian Jan 25th 2022 6:41 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by bats (Post 13090270)
That reminds me of someone i used to work with. Occupational Health would fairly frequently summon her for a polio vacinne and would need some persuading that she didn't need one as she had had polio as a child.
I have to admit that I am not following the point you appear to want to make here.

Shard Jan 25th 2022 7:05 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13090276)
Are you able to provide any logical reason why jurisdictions should treat those with vaccinations and those unvaxxed, but infected, differently?
Presumably, you mean those that are have immunity through vaccination and those unvaxxed that have natural immunity following an infection. The reason is to discourage the behavior. We're agreed that we want as many people vaxxed as possible, so the question is how to deal with the unvaxxed population. Three segments, those that can't be vaxed for medical reasons, the political objectors, and the ill informed. Obviously the first category is not an issue as vaccination is not relevant. The second category is problematic, and there's a debate to be had regarding personal rights and societal health; to the extent that virus virulence/transmissability factor is low, this category can be put on the back burner. It's really the third category which needs to be addressed. These are individuals or communities who are not objecting for a political reason, but from misinformation, superstition, habit or convenience; people who do not know better. When juridstictions differentiate (vaccine passports etc) the effect will be to nudge this third group toward vaccination. Which is in their best interests and societies best interests. As for the political objectors, there's probably some way to accomodate them. Perhaps if they wear their MAGA hats the vaccine passport can be waived (again subject the virus being only moderate risk).

Mordko Jan 25th 2022 9:25 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13090275)
I note that you have not pointed to anything they have stated with which you disagree in those videos. I suggest you review the source material yourself and let us know if you disagree with what those two have stated.
No, sorry. If you were to provide a reputable source then I'd read it. Like a peer reviewed paper from a good journal or a Canadian/US organization which includes specialists. Nonsense can be generated at a much faster rate than I can read/listen to it. It's not my field so why would I listen to some plonker ranting for clicks? In my field I am sometimes forced to do it but then I get paid.

I mean a nurse who has been caught spreading incompetent BS and a former doctor who has been kicked out for unprofessional behaviour... It usually takes A LOT to get kicked out.

bats Jan 25th 2022 9:59 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13090277)
I have to admit that I am not following the point you appear to want to make here.
There wasn't a point, just a pointless anecdote. The situation you talked of, someone unvaccinated but immune because they had previously had COVID, reminded me of a similar occasion so it's not an unknown scenario. COVID and all it's iterations is rapidly evolving and so advice must develop with it. Hopefully once there's sufficient evidence of post infection immunity there'll be protocols to match.

printer Jan 25th 2022 10:02 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13090125)
I'm in broad agreement although I would say that in a restaurant, keeping your mask on until food or drink (whatever comes first) arrives at least keeps it in mind. A very clear when you must wear and when you needn't would concentrate the mind not just while dining. Allow removal for the walk to the table and you can bet you'll have people removing them when they're all backed up "waiting to be seated" in that crowded area by the door.

As for the take-out coffee, your fellow customers are the same side of the screen as you are.
But that's the thing we don't have "crowded area by the door" because we still have social distance measures that as far as i know here in BC have never been lifted. People are still spaced out waiting and in a coffee line we are staring at the back of each other a few feet apart not face to face so there seems little reason to be overly concerned when it's a free for all once seated (within the local regulations)
The idea of a busy area with unmasked people in very close quarters is clearly something many find worrisome and i could see that this mask debate may well go on and on yet while we are stuck in this loop England have been happy to break away from it altogether it seems and remember throughout the whole Omicron thing Boris never reintroduced social distancing or masks for pubs and restaurants and vax passport requirements were uncommon in comparison to Canada, yet again we have been hearing that for the last few days cases are dropping off quite a bit.

dbd33 Jan 25th 2022 11:25 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13090284)
Presumably, you mean those that are have immunity through vaccination and those unvaxxed that have natural immunity following an infection. The reason is to discourage the behavior. We're agreed that we want as many people vaxxed as possible, so the question is how to deal with the unvaxxed population. Three segments, those that can't be vaxed for medical reasons, the political objectors, and the ill informed. Obviously the first category is not an issue as vaccination is not relevant. The second category is problematic, and there's a debate to be had regarding personal rights and societal health; to the extent that virus virulence/transmissability factor is low, this category can be put on the back burner. It's really the third category which needs to be addressed. These are individuals or communities who are not objecting for a political reason, but from misinformation, superstition, habit or convenience; people who do not know better. When juridstictions differentiate (vaccine passports etc) the effect will be to nudge this third group toward vaccination. Which is in their best interests and societies best interests. As for the political objectors, there's probably some way to accomodate them. Perhaps if they wear their MAGA hats the vaccine passport can be waived (again subject the virus being only moderate risk).
I think this is spot on and Quebec's policy of requiring a vaccine certificate in order to purchase alcohol or cannabis seems to have been exactly the nudge required.

BristolUK Jan 25th 2022 12:04 pm
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by printer (Post 13090312)
But that's the thing we don't have "crowded area by the door" because we still have social distance measures.
Lots of people have spoken of social distancing rules not necessarily being followed. Even in BC.
We're currently in a circuit breaker for two weeks (take-outs and delivery only) but distancing or not, if it's -20 out, with a feels like -30 and the choice is distanced but outside or crowded but inside, I'm certain a blind eye will be turned to people only a couple of feet apart but masked and staff will seat people a bit quicker.

printer Jan 25th 2022 4:06 pm
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13090326)
Lots of people have spoken of social distancing rules not necessarily being followed. Even in BC.
We're currently in a circuit breaker for two weeks (take-outs and delivery only) but distancing or not, if it's -20 out, with a feels like -30 and the choice is distanced but outside or crowded but inside, I'm certain a blind eye will be turned to people only a couple of feet apart but masked and staff will seat people a bit quicker.
Yes except in our local blood work clinics where there are literally 10 spaced out chairs inside and a big line outside in the cold before opening as all the fasting people want to get their bloods done and get home to eat something. I am sure finding a vein on these people when they finally get inside is tough at times. :lol:

Almost Canadian Jan 26th 2022 12:55 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13090284)
Presumably, you mean those that are have immunity through vaccination and those unvaxxed that have natural immunity following an infection. The reason is to discourage the behavior. We're agreed that we want as many people vaxxed as possible, so the question is how to deal with the unvaxxed population. Three segments, those that can't be vaxed for medical reasons, the political objectors, and the ill informed. Obviously the first category is not an issue as vaccination is not relevant. The second category is problematic, and there's a debate to be had regarding personal rights and societal health; to the extent that virus virulence/transmissability factor is low, this category can be put on the back burner. It's really the third category which needs to be addressed. These are individuals or communities who are not objecting for a political reason, but from misinformation, superstition, habit or convenience; people who do not know better. When juridstictions differentiate (vaccine passports etc) the effect will be to nudge this third group toward vaccination. Which is in their best interests and societies best interests. As for the political objectors, there's probably some way to accomodate them. Perhaps if they wear their MAGA hats the vaccine passport can be waived (again subject the virus being only moderate risk).
OK. But none of that dealt with the question I asked.

Almost Canadian Jan 26th 2022 12:57 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13090303)
No, sorry. If you were to provide a reputable source then I'd read it. Like a peer reviewed paper from a good journal or a Canadian/US organization which includes specialists. Nonsense can be generated at a much faster rate than I can read/listen to it. It's not my field so why would I listen to some plonker ranting for clicks? In my field I am sometimes forced to do it but then I get paid.

I mean a nurse who has been caught spreading incompetent BS and a former doctor who has been kicked out for unprofessional behaviour... It usually takes A LOT to get kicked out.
Both of them were quoting directly from the CDC's own research but, as you don't actually have anything specific to say about what they actually said, I simply accept that you have nothing to say.

Shard Jan 26th 2022 1:45 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13090434)
OK. But none of that dealt with the question I asked.
It totally and comprehensively dealt with the question you asked !

Almost Canadian Jan 26th 2022 2:00 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13090454)
It totally and comprehensively dealt with the question you asked !
So you wish to turn back the clock to a time when they weren't vaccinated?

I was referring to now. Just as when people are able to show medical exemptions (resulting in them being able to do things off limits for the non-vaxxed) do you accept that similar provisions should be made for unvaxxed, but infected, provided they are able to show that this has occurred?

If not, why not? How are they any more of a danger to society than the medically exempt?

Shard Jan 26th 2022 2:32 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13090325)
I think this is spot on and Quebec's policy of requiring a vaccine certificate in order to purchase alcohol or cannabis seems to have been exactly the nudge required.
Un bon idée for le Québec ! If they were so inclined, American states might be able to achieve a similar uptick by making certificates required at gun stores !

Shard Jan 26th 2022 2:36 am
Re: Coronavirus
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13090459)
So you wish to turn back the clock to a time when they weren't vaccinated?

I was referring to now. Just as when people are able to show medical exemptions (resulting in them being able to do things off limits for the non-vaxxed) do you accept that similar provisions should be made for unvaxxed, but infected, provided they are able to show that this has occurred?

If not, why not? How are they any more of a danger to society than the medically exempt?
Did you read my post? I've already stated that those with an exemption on medical grounds do not need to be vaccinated ?


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