Re: Canadian Values
 

Considering how many centuries Britain's been going, and has yet to achieve that national maturity with regards to - well, anywhere (see: EU, USA, Australia), you're either out massively on timescale, or cause :p

Re: Canadian Values
 

Highly illogical. ;)

Re: Canadian Values
 

I have wondered about 'national maturity'. What is obvious, I think, is very few appreciate debate or alternative points if view at any level, even in education. Then again, if a whole people can afford to retain the lackings of immaturity and indulge in the knowledge that the older sibling next door is always available, why not? It's worked for over a century!

Re: Canadian Values
 

:o:o:o:o it's almost as if I'd never heard of the Internet :o
Struggling to manoeuvre round to the front of house, but it's not really looking like the area has changed/improved much :(

Re: Canadian Values
 

:goodpost:

Canadian values, as espoused by the former government of Our Glorious Steve, seem to include complicity in "extraordinary rendition," enthusiastic support of interrogation-by-torture when carried out by Syrian and Egyptian inquisitorial offices, and thorough and total disregard for the principles of consular assistance given to citizens detained in a foreign country.

Documents show CSIS and RCMP's role in post-9/11 torture of 3 Canadians in Syria - Canada - CBC News

Kellie Leitch's supposed "conversation" on Canadian Values is a very thinly veiled xenophobic rant, with an awful lot of barely-disguised anti-Islamic rhetoric dressed up as jingoism and wrapped in cuddly words. It's poisonous and despicable.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Not previously having heard of Kellie Leitch, I googled. A neo-con lesbian, well you don't hear of one of those every day. I'm relieved to see that she's a figure of fun:

https://thebeaverton.com/2016/09/try...st-immigrants/

Re: Canadian Values
 

No. It hasn't, unless you count the shiny new(ish) Sikh Temple around the corner.

I'm going to visit that next Saturday as a newly joined member of the Toon Humanist Society.

Re: Canadian Values
 

If you can reconcile that with our Marxist-Hedonist values you have my blessing.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Ah yes "Our Glorious Steve". He certainly redefined 'citizenship' and it's value to anyone in a precarious situation. Mind you, didnt he pay to bring back Lebanese Canadians stranded in Beirut and reverse his decision to revoke citizenship of Chinese that had no intention of living in Canada?

Re: Canadian Values
 

No, "he" didn't pay. We, the tax payers did, to the tune of some $100+ million. Almost all of the evacuees had no intention of staying in Canada and promptly returned to Lebanon as soon as things calmed down.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Agreed. Ref daggers - but its called being polite or "having a filter". Personally I think its just an excuse to be two faced.


Ref: 40% in another country - looking forward to that for me. The amount of my Canadian pals who hate snow make me chuckle.


Oh and to add, you simply have to drive fast and tail gate in bad weather, and never learn from the accidents.

Re: Canadian Values
 

I see your point and yes we taxpayers footed that bill too. That was probably the first & last act of protection of Canadians overseas. Since then, a theme of 'abandonment' of Canadians appears to be commonplace which begs the question of what values Canada truly upholds?

Re: Canadian Values
 

Here's a way to solve so many of the problems of "Canadians" born in other countries caught up in problems in the country of their birth while they are visiting or living there.

If you come to Canada and become a Canadian citizen, the government of Canada will recognize you as Canadian and will assist you in problems anywhere in the world, unless you get into trouble in the country in which you were born or hold another passport for.

In this case you will be recognized, not as Canadian, but as a citizen of the country where you were born, hold a passport for and are in trouble in.

Re: Canadian Values
 

That is the effective position at the moment as you have described. However, people who had relinquished previous citizenships in order to take up Canadian citizenship are also being abandoned. All very confusing to say the least.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Perhaps you could explain the difference between "a Canadian" and a Canadian.

Re: Canadian Values
 

That is a fairly standard approach. I had a friend from Russia who fled to Germany, when she finally got citizenship she had to sign a form explicitly acknowledging that if she got in trouble anywhere in the world, German consulates would provide her with all the help they could - unless it was in Russia, in which case she would be considered a Russian citizen, and they wouldn't get involved.

Re: Canadian Values
 

The above makes sense. After all, the person is fleeing for a reason and then takes on the personal responsibility of consequences when they return to the original problem voluntarily.
But what of the Canadian born person who visits a place of ancestry but unwittingly gets snared into something local? Canadian identity is a core pillar to citizenship, but if that identity is diluted at official levels it cant be enticing for wannabe Canadians.

Re: Canadian Values
 

+1...
Re bolded I am one of those ones who hate the snow, and i'm actually making plans to leave but I get the flak for it from those same people who hate the snow :lol:

Re: Canadian Values
 

[QUOTE=Novocastrian;12056575]No. It hasn't, unless you count the shiny new(ish) Sikh Temple around the corner.

I'm going to visit that next Saturday as a newly joined member of the Toon Humanist Society.[/QUOTE]

Cool.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Why is this such a big deal for Canadians? Other countries evacuated significant numbers from Lebanon without making such a hoohaa about dual nationality and returnees.

Are the other countries more compassionate than Canada? Less bigoted? More accepting that people wanted to return to their homes once they were able?

Re: Canadian Values
 

I think a good chunk of the issue is (rightly or wrongly) the "their homes" part of it. Some people feel that if a person has become a Canadian citizen, their home should be in one of the provinces or territories, and that leaving to have a home elsewhere (particularly one where they originally had, before moving to Canada) is indicative of wanting Canadian protection, rather than of wanting to be a part of Canadian society.


Essentially, these people by and large have no problem helping people when Canada is their home. They have a bigger problem helping people when Canada is, or appears to be, their lifeboat.

Re: Canadian Values
 

I know what people think about it but my comment was that it seems only Canada had this attitude, and why.


Maybe some of those people were born Canadian.
The conflict was expected to have lasted longer than a month otherwise why would evacuations take place? Imagine that you and your family were being bombed by a neighbouring country and that your government did not retaliate. Cluster bombs and phosphorus bombs are landing in civilian areas. You have the opportunity to leave and you take it. Then there's an unexpected ceasefire and the country you've lived in for many years, maybe all your life, is not entirely wrecked. Wouldn't you go back?

As for the evacuation if dual nationality, I doubt there would have been time to assess who had this and who didn't.

I think it's a bigoted and churlish attitude.

edit. Instead of being pleased that those people were able to return to their homes Canadians were sulking because the refugees preferred Lebanon over Canada.
No doubt they are the same Canadians who don't want the Syrians here and if those Syrians are ever able to return to help rebuild Syria there will be complaints about ingratitude

Re: Canadian Values
 

I'd expect evacuations to take place based on the severity of the issue, not the timescale; at the extreme, if I was in a city that would be levelled as part of a day-long conflict, I'd quite like to see an evacuation take place.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Interesting. The humanist thing I mean. The organisation, without the belief aspect. I don't have religion, but if I did the 'organised' aspect of it would still be one of the major drawbacks.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Unfortunately you need some 'organisation' to counter the insidious creep of religion itself. Best example of this is opposition to the highly perverse government policy of not only allowing, but encouraging faith schools. British humanists are trying to change this.

Re: Canadian Values
 

When I first read your response I thought hmmm, yeah, good point. But, apart from the likelihood that any government encouragement has to do with funding/creep towards privatisation do religious schools make any difference to the overall level of 'belief'? I'm not really a fan of Dawkins-style atheism that has to 'convert' others to non-belief.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy lessens because people tell you they don't exist (the cads) and doubt sets in.

Imagine what you're told at home being reinforced by your teachers and then at home again and then by your teachers again but also by your peers because that's all they get at home and at school as well.

That's got to make a belief more ingrained than if being exposed to other ideas hasn't it?

Re: Canadian Values
 

Oh, you're probably right. I just hope to make friends with a few people who aren't completely brain dead. I'll probably spit in their faces after 20 minutes.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist (sorry). I know a lot of people who believe in psychics (there's a word for Shard's other thread), lot's of people do, but there aren't any psychic schools. I agree family influence is strong, but I do think some people are just 'susceptible' to belief, and will do so regardless. Religion is not a secret, and those who want/need it will find it.

My youngest is in grade 8, and there exists amongst her peers a belief that clever kids go to Catholic high school. Most of those who will be choosing St Max are doing so because of that belief (and possibly a comparison of exam results) not because of religious affiliation.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Religious schools breed division in society. The watered down CE and RC schools probably don't make much difference to 'belief' and even if they did, modern Christian belief is not a particularly corrosive strain of the virus. Other strains are not quite so benign.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Ha!

Re: Canadian Values
 

They won't need to find it though, it will be there morning noon and night.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Look, I'm trying to be restrained in my pronouncements!

Re: Canadian Values
 

Imagine if you can persuade just two consecutive generations (current parents and their children) to drop their belief in religion, the whole sorry 2000 year edifice crumbles in about 40-50 years. That's all it takes for the planet to become largely rational.

Re: Canadian Values
 

When has the 'you can't/you shouldn't/you're wrong' approach ever succeeded in rationalising religious belief? Fighting religion promotes a bunker mentality. Just live and let live. Religion will never be 'gone'. Some people need it. Let it go.

Re: Canadian Values
 

And that is extremely odd. After all, Canada wants and in reality needs, an international globally involved citizenship for economic reasons. Even today dual nationals have made notable contribution to Canada, and dare it be known, some Federal politicians, bureaucrats and sportspeople hold dual citizenship.

Re: Canadian Values
 

It's on the wane in Europe (even France and Italy). Christianity, that is. I suspect some part of its demise is due to the many rationalists of the past six, seven decades that have doggedly pointed out that it's hokum. The irony in your argument is that it's generally because religionists do not 'live and let live' that some atheists are more vocal in their views.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Did the Lebanese stay for 5 years to get citizenship? Sorry, only vaguely aware of the controversy...

Re: Canadian Values
 

Israel bombs the shit out off Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hitting civilian areas with nasty bombs disapproved of by the UN. Other countries decide that the situation is grave and evacuate their citizens to safety? There's a UN brokered truce after a very short while which means that people can go back to Lebanon.
Canadians disapprove and feel their Canadian values are rejected by scrounging refugees who had the cheek not to want to stay in Canada.

Re: Canadian Values
 

Personally I cannot think of any valid reason for ANY country to arrange evacuation of citizens who have basically abandoned that country, despite retaining their citizenships and pensions. It cost a great deal of money and the stories of ungratefulness by citizens of convenience were what caused the uproar by resident Canadians.