Canada census
 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/St...387/story.html

A principled man (albeit a well-paid bureaucrat) or a primadonna throwing his toys out of the stroller?

My initial feeling is that he is right. For governments to be able to plan on social, educational, welfare etc issues, they must have an understanding of the make-up of their population. This is what a census is for. If you make it voluntary, most people won't bother. Those that do will often have an agenda and the results will be skewed.

Look at the Welsh referendum. Only half the voting population could be arsed to turn out. The result was basically a draw (fewer than 7,000 votes difference). Welsh devolution happened on the say-so of rather less than 20% of its population.

If a census is made voluntary, interest groups will mobilise in just the same way they do on TV shows like Canadian Idol and Greatest Canadian.

Your thoughts?

Re: Canada census
 

I agree. On the face of it you would think it would not make all that much difference, but if the principal statistician says that making the long form voluntary will skew the data then you would have to have a pretty firm grounding in statistics to be able to competently argue against him, which Im guessing rules out any of the politicians making the decision!

Re: Canada census
 

I think this is just a symptom of a much deeper malaise with the left wing "Provider state" ideology though out the western world.

The state only has to plan for health, welfare, education as it provides those things. If we moved from a providing state (Talking about UK and Canada here.) to a more facilitating state (The so called night watchman state.), where the state only sets the rules or the game rather than plays it, then such surveys would be at best a private sector issue and at worst totally irrelevant.

Of course you have to belive that the market is capable of providing the services that the state no longer will, which is itself the principle difference between left and right wing ideologies post WW2, but there can be multiple ways to achieve this everything from pure blood American survival of the fittest to Milton friedmans Citizens wage theory.

this is actually a very precent topic in the UK at the moment with David Cameron's Big Society idea touching on the same issues.

Re: Canada census
 

Whether or not one believes that. And I don't. That is sufficient grounds for wanting to know how many people there are going to be, what languages they'll speak, how they'll be distributed across the country; the basic facts determined by the census. Blundering along not knowing what they're doing will make the Harper government look like a bunch of clowns.

Oh, wait a minute ...

Re: Canada census
 

I love to bash Harper as much as the next man (assuming you are the next man anyway), but technically that info is all on the short form, which is still compulsory. The long form covers all the nitty gritty financial stuff, and thats what all the fuss is about...

Re: Canada census
 

Fair comment, a less drastic approach if you don't want to fully dismantle the states apparatus of control along with the census (as I do.), is to gather data from secondary sources for example slough council thought census data under estimated the population, so they calculated how many People were living in the town from the throughput of the local sewerage works.

Where publicly accessible sources of secondary data are not available (And the local sewerage works is kept locked.) get google and Wal-mart on the case, you'd be amazed how simple things like grocery receipts, mobile phone locations and foot fall along footpaths can be mined to give the most amazing insights into population demographics.

One thing you don't have to do is persist in the 2000 year old idea of having everyone fill out a piece of paper on a given day on pain of prosecution.

Re: Canada census
 

Or you could , like, just ask them?:confused:

Re: Canada census
 

I don't see why having the long form census as voluntary is such a big deal, surely the most pertinent information can be gathered using a mandatory short form or similar. If people wish to supply the powers that be with excess details about their lives then that is their choice.

I object to giving out a multitude of personal details.

<anecdotal moan> I keep receiving some sort of census form to complete relating to a local election. They want to know things like: legal status in Canada; religious orientation; marital status; employment status; linguistic orientation. I have no intention of filling this out no matter how many times they send it to me (via the house next door, how do they manage to get the wrong address anyway?), not least because I am unable to vote as a PR anyway (AFAIK). What difference does it really make if I tick the box for the Public School, or the College of Hemp Weaving? <anecdotal moan>

Re: Canada census
 

I wondered how long it would take before this descended into a Liberal/Conservative argument.

I am with Iaink on this one. It seems to me that the man that resigned was likely looking at retiring anyway and wanted to go out with a bang. Storm in a teacup and all that.

I thought that the Jaffer - Guergis would have caused more fall out than it did.

On a separate note, why can't this bear be found: http://www.calgaryherald.com/technol...005/story.html

I guess there aren't many good hunters in that part of Ontario, where's Mandy when you need her?:thumbsup:

Re: Canada census
 

I guess I'd better have a look at the two forms.

On edit, Statscan suggests that the type of information I think important to planning, specifically data concerning:

demography
activity limitations
language
citizenship and immigration
ethnicity and religion
aboriginal identity
mobility
education
labour market
place of work
income
housing

is requested on the long form.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/survey-enqu...s/5178-eng.htm

Re: Canada census
 

from an ideological standpoint the state has the right to ask but I "should" have the right to refuse to answer, as a citizen of a free country the state is responsible to the citizenry not the other way around. It may sound trival arguement with respect to the census but if surrender your personal right to privacy in this respect what else will the state want next?

Set against that though is if the state has an obligation to provide services to the population then it has a right to know infomation about the population as a whole that could assist it in that activity.

from a practical standpoint the census is an inaccurate expensive snap shot of the population as it was months/years in the past. The more modern data mining techniques are quicker, cheaper, less intrusive and more accurate model of the population. If you don't beleive me go ask the CEO of Wal-Mart.

Re: Canada census
 

Me neither, but if the head honcho at stats canada says its going to invalidate the data, neither of us is in a much of a position to argue the technical point with him I suspect. I value his judgment in this over mine, and see no reason for him to throw himself upon his sword unless its a real issue.

If the new way proposed is not going to be statistically valid then there is no point doing it at all, but thats a different debate I guess.

Since when has government policy ever been changed on the grounds of a tiny percent of the population complaining about something anyway? In reality only a fraction of a percent of those required to complete the long form ever complained about it. Its hardly democratic.


Of those who did complain, many were less concerned about the data they were providing than they were about the fact that stats canada used to use local neighbour volunteers to gather the forms rather than someone they didnt know. As as result StatsCan changed proceedures to ensure better anonymity because of that.

The cynic within me wonders about the real motivation behind the proposed changes is.

Re: Canada census
 

You seem to have failed to have read the bit in the CIC book the points out that with rights come certain RESPONSIBILIES as a citizen.

To have to fill out a form every few years, and maybe be in the one in twenty or whatever it is that gets the long form to do doesn't seem a major hardship or infringement on my rights to me. Sure beats jury duty.

Re: Canada census
 

Still trying to work out whether Ontario is East or West of Alberta?;)

Re: Canada census
 

Close to retiring anyway?


Such as?

Those of you out east seem to be very concerned about politics all the time. Out here, no one seems to give a toss, unless of course Quebec is up to something mad cap or those that weren't popular enough to form the ruling party band together to usurp the power of the largest minority. Strange, very strange.:thumbsup:

Re: Canada census
 

ROFL:rofl:

Re: Canada census
 

I'm afraid that I have no reason to accept this guy's opinion over anyone elses. I take the view that if some statistical big wig feels the need to throw a wobbler and quit his job over these proposed changes then there has to be more going on behind closed doors. The cynic within me thinks that, in general, things going on behind closed doors are not good.

(Where's the paranoid smilie?)

Re: Canada census
 

Two points here:

- either it's right for the state to gather information on the populace or it isn't. In my view a form containing questions that are in the public domain is more acceptable than covert data gathering such as you suggest.

- datawarehousing has been my business for yonks, the content of those databases aint as great as all that and, if you know the stuff in it about you is wrong, there's nothing you can do. At least with a form you provide your own misleading or inaccurate data.

Re: Canada census
 

The official line appears to be that as an incumbent civil servant the advice he gives the minister is confidential, and therefore he is unable to comment on events.

After resigning he has no such obligation and is able to respond to the allegations thrown around that as he supplied the options presented to the minister that he must have not had any problem with them at the time, which clearly he did. Im not going to question his understanding of statistics, its seems unlikely you get to head one of the most respected statistics organisations without knowing a bit more about it than the average lay person.

Im not sure whats going on really, clearly cost cutting and internal politics are probably on the list somewhere, but its unusual for a career civil servant to chuck their toys out of the pram without very good cause. I dont imagine political interference is welcome at stats canada, where trying to determine "the truth" (whatever that may be) is the main order of the day.

Re: Canada census
 

It's not covert, it's simply anonymous and given that it is anonymous no one individual would care if data that they have (Albeit unwittingly) supplied is accurate or not.

Re: Canada census
 

The combination of my "grocery receipts, mobile phone locations and foot fall along footpaths" is not anonymous. It's more revealing of me than the data requested on the census. An army of magnumtys gathering such data would be far more intrusive than the census questions.

Re: Canada census
 

Certainly I have responsibilities as a citizen, but I don't discharge those duties particularly well by just accepting the status quo in the face of something I belive to be at best highly inefficient and at worst runs contrary to the tenants of liberty and personal freedom.

I only cease to be a good citizen at the point I harm to common good by failing to aquiesse to the wisdom of the majority of my peers.

Re: Canada census
 

On the contrary, my "grocery receipts, mobile phone locations and foot fall along footpaths" would provide a certain amount of contradictory 'data'. ;)

I found this big list of questions* that have been on the Canadian census in the past. I find this to be wholly intrusive, much more so than someone making guesses based on my Ikea purchases and the frequency of my beer & wings consumption.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/datalib/censusq.htm

*Disclaimer: No, I have not thoroughly researched the source. If it transpires to be the work of some right wing internet lunatic, then so be it.

Re: Canada census
 

Cross referencing your "grocery receipts, mobile phone locations and foot fall along footpaths" use of ip addresses, and similar information with those of other people provides a good stab at the answers to many of those questions. Inferences drawn from the lack of data provides others. For example, based on an analysis of your attendance at religious ceremonies, the government might well infer that, while culturally Jewish, you do not practise. Wouldn't you rather tell them something of your choice than let them guess wrongly?

Re: Canada census
 

Leaving aside this short and long form issue a true census wouldn't give me the choice about whether I tell the government I'm Jewish or Christian I'd be obliged to tell them and that is the breach of personal privacy.

On the other hand if the hand if the government want to infer that the area I live in has a high concentration of jews, christians or one legged dwarf transvestites and plan services on that basis I couldn't care less.

Re: Canada census
 

Which brings us neatly back to where we set off from.

Either the government should set off to gather the most accurate information is can, or it should not bother at all. The end result either way is probably wasted time and resources.

They have the unique distinction that they can make laws to compel people to do stuff. If they wanted they could pass a law requiring for example military service, and have done so in the past. Im pretty sure at least some of those called up were none to thrilled, but they went anyway. In the great scheme of things having to fill a form out to maintain accurate information with which to plan services etc from is not the end of the world.

If you make it less than mandatory, then you run the risk of the information being flawed. If I was the chief statistician, I would probably be pretty annoyed at that prospect too after working for so long to avoid it.

Personal privacy has nothing to do with it, its all anonymous data, Stats Canada go to remarkable lengths to ensure anonymity.

Re: Canada census
 

No! I would not.

I fail to see how my shopping and texting habits would have any correlation to many of the topics on that list.

How would the government know which religious ceremonies I attend? What if, once, I hover in the doorway of the Church of the Highly Powered Delusionists?

Re: Canada census
 

Location of your phone, your footfalls on the pathway.

Then they might count you one. If the Church of the Highly Powered Delusionists set up a temple outside White Hart Lane then the government might infer, from the many people trekking there, that the CHPD was a growing religion worthy of grants, charter schools and all the rest of it.

I think the government can make quite enough of a cock of things using reasonably accurate data; they don't need poorer data.

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I think the census is popular with politicians just because it lets them get enough statistics so they can feel like they're just playing a giant game of Sim City.

Re: Canada census
 

The government has no need to know which cult I subscribe to any more than they need to know which ring on my oven I use the most. If people wish to provide this information, then fine, if not, then a succinct summary of the basic essentials should suffice.

Re: Canada census
 

I have reasonable confidence that the data I supply on the census form remains anonymous so it doesn't bother me. Even if it wasn't I don't see the information requested can be used against me. I don't see the point of principle involved. I do think that a compulsory census will be provide more meaningful statistics and, because I want the government to provide the services the people need at the lowest possible cost, it is a reasonable intrusion on people's right to privacy.

I heard on Quirks and Quarks an academic (and unfortunately I cannot remember who it was) explaining how someone can use the data provided by smart phones to predict where the user would be at any given point in the future. It was accurate something like within 10 meters 95% of the time. Now that scares me.

Re: Canada census
 

I wonder if everyone's data in these categories is as closely related.

I think there's some merit in keeping track of the numbers of cult members. Religions are notoriously the cause of trouble so it's as well to know if the country has a large number of adherents to the views of Monsignor This in case he launches a fatwah against Guru That.

Re: Canada census
 

I personally prefer not to be branded by the government like one of the herd and then pigeon holed accordingly. What religion someone is or what their genetic lineage is should not make a lick of difference as far as the gov't is concerned.

Re: Canada census
 

So if you dont know (for example) what proportion of the the general population is, lets say, jewish, then how do you know if a particular employer has a representative number of jewish employees in order to determine if some sort of discriminatory hiring practice is in place?

Just one example of many you could make regarding government policy and planing needing accurate information.

Re: Canada census
 

Does Canada have religious equality regulations with regards to employment?

Re: Canada census
 

You don't find that out becasue of a census. Also, I have no doubt that this happens now with the long census. The census doesn't make a difference.

Re: Canada census
 

If it dosen't then it makes no difference what the ethnic balance is in a given workplace.

If it does then simply make it illegal to enquire as to someones background/age/sex/sexuality/ethnicity for the purposes of employment.

Either way there is no need for government to collate central statistics on the matter.

Re: Canada census
 

How else would the government accurately determine the make up of the country?

No, probably not the long form in this case, but take something like environmental or road building policy. Without knowing data on commute times and distances how are policies to be devised that dont either over or under resource a solution?

Garbage in, Garbage out. Enough garbage is generated by government to not wish to further handicap the policy makers.

Re: Canada census
 

And how then do you suggest that policy is policed without monitoring the workplace make up against the make up of the local region of that employer in the event anyone complains of descrimination?

Data isnt the enemy here. The more you know the better you can plan for stuff. Abusive use of the data is the enemy I think, and there is no evidence of that.

Re: Canada census
 

It is the bolded sentence that says it all. The gov't should have absolutely no part whatsoever in basing it's policies around genetics and religion. Either we are equal or we are not.