Canada census
 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/St...387/story.html

A principled man (albeit a well-paid bureaucrat) or a primadonna throwing his toys out of the stroller?

My initial feeling is that he is right. For governments to be able to plan on social, educational, welfare etc issues, they must have an understanding of the make-up of their population. This is what a census is for. If you make it voluntary, most people won't bother. Those that do will often have an agenda and the results will be skewed.

Look at the Welsh referendum. Only half the voting population could be arsed to turn out. The result was basically a draw (fewer than 7,000 votes difference). Welsh devolution happened on the say-so of rather less than 20% of its population.

If a census is made voluntary, interest groups will mobilise in just the same way they do on TV shows like Canadian Idol and Greatest Canadian.

Your thoughts?

Re: Canada census
 

I agree. On the face of it you would think it would not make all that much difference, but if the principal statistician says that making the long form voluntary will skew the data then you would have to have a pretty firm grounding in statistics to be able to competently argue against him, which Im guessing rules out any of the politicians making the decision!

Re: Canada census
 

I think this is just a symptom of a much deeper malaise with the left wing "Provider state" ideology though out the western world.

The state only has to plan for health, welfare, education as it provides those things. If we moved from a providing state (Talking about UK and Canada here.) to a more facilitating state (The so called night watchman state.), where the state only sets the rules or the game rather than plays it, then such surveys would be at best a private sector issue and at worst totally irrelevant.

Of course you have to belive that the market is capable of providing the services that the state no longer will, which is itself the principle difference between left and right wing ideologies post WW2, but there can be multiple ways to achieve this everything from pure blood American survival of the fittest to Milton friedmans Citizens wage theory.

this is actually a very precent topic in the UK at the moment with David Cameron's Big Society idea touching on the same issues.

Re: Canada census
 

Whether or not one believes that. And I don't. That is sufficient grounds for wanting to know how many people there are going to be, what languages they'll speak, how they'll be distributed across the country; the basic facts determined by the census. Blundering along not knowing what they're doing will make the Harper government look like a bunch of clowns.

Oh, wait a minute ...

Re: Canada census
 

I love to bash Harper as much as the next man (assuming you are the next man anyway), but technically that info is all on the short form, which is still compulsory. The long form covers all the nitty gritty financial stuff, and thats what all the fuss is about...

Re: Canada census
 

Fair comment, a less drastic approach if you don't want to fully dismantle the states apparatus of control along with the census (as I do.), is to gather data from secondary sources for example slough council thought census data under estimated the population, so they calculated how many People were living in the town from the throughput of the local sewerage works.

Where publicly accessible sources of secondary data are not available (And the local sewerage works is kept locked.) get google and Wal-mart on the case, you'd be amazed how simple things like grocery receipts, mobile phone locations and foot fall along footpaths can be mined to give the most amazing insights into population demographics.

One thing you don't have to do is persist in the 2000 year old idea of having everyone fill out a piece of paper on a given day on pain of prosecution.

Re: Canada census
 

Or you could , like, just ask them?:confused:

Re: Canada census
 

I don't see why having the long form census as voluntary is such a big deal, surely the most pertinent information can be gathered using a mandatory short form or similar. If people wish to supply the powers that be with excess details about their lives then that is their choice.

I object to giving out a multitude of personal details.

<anecdotal moan> I keep receiving some sort of census form to complete relating to a local election. They want to know things like: legal status in Canada; religious orientation; marital status; employment status; linguistic orientation. I have no intention of filling this out no matter how many times they send it to me (via the house next door, how do they manage to get the wrong address anyway?), not least because I am unable to vote as a PR anyway (AFAIK). What difference does it really make if I tick the box for the Public School, or the College of Hemp Weaving? <anecdotal moan>

Re: Canada census
 

I wondered how long it would take before this descended into a Liberal/Conservative argument.

I am with Iaink on this one. It seems to me that the man that resigned was likely looking at retiring anyway and wanted to go out with a bang. Storm in a teacup and all that.

I thought that the Jaffer - Guergis would have caused more fall out than it did.

On a separate note, why can't this bear be found: http://www.calgaryherald.com/technol...005/story.html

I guess there aren't many good hunters in that part of Ontario, where's Mandy when you need her?:thumbsup:

Re: Canada census
 

I guess I'd better have a look at the two forms.

On edit, Statscan suggests that the type of information I think important to planning, specifically data concerning:

demography
activity limitations
language
citizenship and immigration
ethnicity and religion
aboriginal identity
mobility
education
labour market
place of work
income
housing

is requested on the long form.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/survey-enqu...s/5178-eng.htm

Re: Canada census
 

from an ideological standpoint the state has the right to ask but I "should" have the right to refuse to answer, as a citizen of a free country the state is responsible to the citizenry not the other way around. It may sound trival arguement with respect to the census but if surrender your personal right to privacy in this respect what else will the state want next?

Set against that though is if the state has an obligation to provide services to the population then it has a right to know infomation about the population as a whole that could assist it in that activity.

from a practical standpoint the census is an inaccurate expensive snap shot of the population as it was months/years in the past. The more modern data mining techniques are quicker, cheaper, less intrusive and more accurate model of the population. If you don't beleive me go ask the CEO of Wal-Mart.

Re: Canada census
 

Me neither, but if the head honcho at stats canada says its going to invalidate the data, neither of us is in a much of a position to argue the technical point with him I suspect. I value his judgment in this over mine, and see no reason for him to throw himself upon his sword unless its a real issue.

If the new way proposed is not going to be statistically valid then there is no point doing it at all, but thats a different debate I guess.

Since when has government policy ever been changed on the grounds of a tiny percent of the population complaining about something anyway? In reality only a fraction of a percent of those required to complete the long form ever complained about it. Its hardly democratic.


Of those who did complain, many were less concerned about the data they were providing than they were about the fact that stats canada used to use local neighbour volunteers to gather the forms rather than someone they didnt know. As as result StatsCan changed proceedures to ensure better anonymity because of that.

The cynic within me wonders about the real motivation behind the proposed changes is.

Re: Canada census
 

You seem to have failed to have read the bit in the CIC book the points out that with rights come certain RESPONSIBILIES as a citizen.

To have to fill out a form every few years, and maybe be in the one in twenty or whatever it is that gets the long form to do doesn't seem a major hardship or infringement on my rights to me. Sure beats jury duty.

Re: Canada census
 

Still trying to work out whether Ontario is East or West of Alberta?;)

Re: Canada census
 

Close to retiring anyway?


Such as?

Those of you out east seem to be very concerned about politics all the time. Out here, no one seems to give a toss, unless of course Quebec is up to something mad cap or those that weren't popular enough to form the ruling party band together to usurp the power of the largest minority. Strange, very strange.:thumbsup: