scrubbedexpat142

Except that 50p was worth a lot more then than it is now.

Oakvillian

I'm not sure that they are. Images of the coin that I've seen don't have any words capitalised except the initial cap for Peace.

Jingsamichty

Mea culpa, I'd only seen the photo with Sajiv Javid but it is much clearer in the close up you provided. Lovely nails, that Sajiv, don't you agree?

MillieF

I like that image. First time I’ve seen it. I would like it to be true..., and,...I find it unambiguous!

I’m presently working with a young man who does everything to tell me, in conversation, daily, that he is rabidly heterosexual, and he paints his nails four colours a week​​​​...they look far nicer than mine, I don’t have time! ...but it still strikes me as a bit odd...especially in NB...I fear I’m feeling aged!

dave_j

Considering the statement: "peace and prosperity and friendship with all nations".

Logic dictates that the 'and' functions are executed first in order to link Peace, Prosperity, Friendship into a single entity that can then be described by 'with all nations'. The 'and' functions operate as though brackets were placed such that '(peace and prosperity and friendship) with all nations'.

I appreciate that if you don't approach the statement logically then you could argue otherwise.

Further, I'd argue that if a comma were to be placed within the original statement to produce: "peace, prosperity, and friendship with all nations" then the addition of the second comma serves to separate 'peace, prosperity' in the manner you latterly suggest such that only friendship is open to 'all nations' with peace and prosperity left as simple declarations.

BritInParis

It’s a paraphrase of a section of Thomas Jefferson’s inaugural address. The final line (my emphasis) is rather interesting given the current context and I would suggest the choice of this particular quote is not accidental.


https://jeffersonpapers.princeton.ed...ural-address-0

Jingsamichty

Thanks for that information, that really does provide some insight into the minds of the people who commissioned the coin. In this context, I find the coin to be a deliberately antagonistic symbol.

Former Lancastrian

I find the coin to be worth 50p though in time and once in circulation could become a collectors item and potentially worth more later on. I expect some will be trying to flog them on eBay or other such sites at whatever price someone is willing to pay for one unless the bid turns out to be fake. Now I did find this Wiki article on the Oxford comma also known as the Harvard comma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
For example, a list of three countries might be punctuated either as "France, Italy, and Spain" (with the serial comma), or as "France, Italy and Spain" (without the serial comma).[3][4][5

The new United Kingdom 50p coin commemorating Brexit day, 31 January 2020, was minted with the phrase “Peace, prosperity and friendship with all nations”. English novelist Sir Philip Pullman and others criticized the omission of the Oxford comma, whilst others claimed it was an Americanism and not required in this instance.[56]

Now of course members of the grammar police will have their view, academics and scholars will have their view and those of us who are just ordinary people don't give a **** knowing if I get one in my change its only worth 50p with or without a bleeding Oxford comma.

dave_j

I enjoyed reading examples in this link, in particular just how ambiguous a simple phrase can get once you poke a few commas in.
I'm tempted to wonder how misunderstandings this form of punctuation has produced and how many wars it nearly, or perhaps did, start.

Oakvillian

But your exposition exposes a grammatical horror. "Prosperity with all nations" is meaningless. "Peace with all nations" and "Friendship with all nations" are surely degrees of the same thing (cf. tolerance vs acceptance). I don't think that's the intent of the phrase at all. Its three ideas are i. Peace; ii. Prosperity; iii. Friendship with all nations.

Here's another take. Looking at Jefferson's original (Thanks, BritInParis - that's an excellent find!) it's clear that his command of grammar was better than those who've written the slogan for the 50p. Because his three nouns (Peace, Commerce, Friendship) can all take "with all nations" quite happily, it makes sense if read the way you see it. But it's hard to make a case that "prosperity with all nations" is grammatical. Prosperity for all nations might work. Prosperity to all nations, perhaps. But a dative rather than ablative sense (to/for, rather than by/with/from) is clearly required. Butchering Jefferson's phraseology has rendered it ungrammatical at best, and meaningless at worst.

That pretty much says all there is to say about Brexit, really - the unquoted conclusion of Jefferson's quote is just an extra crack of the whip.

dave_j

The original argument concerned the use of the Oxford Comma.
I suggested, as an example of a statement that was more explicit logically and less ambiguous would be to use 'and' in place of the comma.
One corollary of that is that the noun 'prosperity' will become associated with the preposition 'with'.
You state that the resulting phrase 'prosperity with all nations' is meaningless and therefore the 'and' cannot be used.
1. This quibble doesn't address the purpose of the original example.
2. I disagree that the argument that 'prosperity with all nations' is meaningless and I, for one, would understand it's meaning as it's used.
As an aside I reference https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/with
Example 'c' demonstrates an example of the use of is:
c: : in respect to : so far as concerns eg. 'on friendly terms with all nations'
or applying this to the phrase in question... 'prosperity' so far as concerns 'all nations'

Former Lancastrian

Would the phrase We're Out or We Are Out have been less ambiguous or even worth a thread?

dave_j

Having given this question a very great deal of very deep thought, I've concluded that we're not yet out but very soon will be.
And... as you suggest, this message would have meant what it said on the tin, no ifs, no buts.

Paul_Shepherd

I really don't think anything would have been made of this, if a similar 50p with ambiguous use/no use of comma were struck to celebrate being part of the EU.

It's just a vehicle for some angry people to voice their disgruntled feelings about leaving the EU, some have said they will refuse to carry it....not entirely sure what they would do with it if they receive it as part part of their change...maybe there should be donation boxes set up at choice locations so people can off unload their unwanted 50 pence pieces. All proceeds to a deserving charity

jimf

The coin doesn’t matter in the slightest.

A reasonable insight into present circumstances by Gisela Stuart in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e_iOSApp_Other