mah88

Hey, everyone. I've received a job offer to work in Palermo and have some questions about the contract. They say it'll be a 'co.co. pro' contract and that I will be paid every month whether I can't come in because of illness or because I go on holiday. However, they also say I 'may' need to make up the hours missed in the months that follow. Surely this isn't legal? I thought paid holidays were guaranteed in Italy, so they can't be accounted for when you return. Or can they do whatever they want because it's a co.co. pro aka a cooperative freelance contract (that's what I'd surmised by that acronym).

daniel_t

Hi mah88, the co.co.pro. contract is technically a zero-hour freelance contract - the system works like PAYE in the UK. You send your employer an invoice every month and 20% of your pre-tax pay is deducted (ritenuta d'acconto - something like that, sorry for my Italian). At the end of the tax year, you need to make up any difference in your income tax by submitting a tax return. So you get paid for how many hours you've worked. The co.co.pro. contract is similar to the co.co.co. - the only difference is that you get pension contributions (INPS) with the latter; your employer pays two-thirds and you pay one-third. Both types of contracts don't give you entitlements to holiday or sick pay.

If there is a fixed number of working hours, it's colloquially referred to as 'monte ore'. It is usually specified in determinato (fixed-term) or indeterminato (permanent) contracts. Fixed pay in return for a fixed number of working hours.

Without knowing the details, it sounds like an unofficial, quasi-legal agreement that your minimum working hours would be guaranteed under a co.co.pro. contract.

mah88

Thanks for that. The contract states that it's a "Contratto co co pro e/o a termine" and "ore di ADM e ore di DID vengono convertite con rapporto 3/1 e con rapporto 2/1". Is it about the tax returns relationship?

daniel_t

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the co.co.pro. contract, but I can ask some of my colleagues if they know what ADM and DID means.

The part with 'rapporto' sounds like the ADM hours would be counted as '3/1' (again, not sure if it means one-third or triple). Let's hope somebody else here can help you with it.

mah88

Thanks, anyway. I spoke to an Italian guy today and he says what my gut was saying in that it's a really bad idea as the company has all the control and you have no rights.

modicasa

Im afraid I agree with the Italian guy. You will end up working and not getting paid for months, if at all.

mah88

Pretty disappointed as I was looking forward to workijg there and they seemed to really appreciate me in the interview. All part of the spiel, I suppose.

daniel_t

I'm not trying to suggest most Italians are dishonest, and it would be utterly wrong to say that. There are crooks back in the UK too.

But what I've noticed is that the proportion of dishonest people in Italy is by far higher than that in the UK. I really don't understand why the Italians will take advantage of other people at every single opportunity.

I've learnt to be sceptical of any verbal or contractual promise made to me. The lack of 'spirit of contract' is a sign of less advanced countries. Anyhow I remember my ex-colleague from Parma once saying 'I'm Italian - words matter more than actions'. This speaks a lot about their twisted logic. Actions speak more than words, not the other way round.

C.2s

Hmmm...
​​​​I'm not saying that ripping people off doesn't exist...of course it does. But I think that some of this depends on what is customary (and therefore expected) rather than it being an attempt to rip someone off.
For example think about this:
In the UK would you expect to pay a builder up front or after the job is completed?
I think it's normal to pay afterwards in that situation.

I've done a number of contracts here that worked in that way. They were for agencies that have contracts with schools where I have been paid some months after completing the work. The agency can't invoice the school until the project is completed, and then it takes the school a while to pay.
​​​​​
​​in the situation I experienced everyone else seemed to think it was normal. I wasn't happy about it but I can sort of understand that they won't pay until the work is done, and if the whole sector works that way then what can you do? What I did was say to the agency "I can't afford to do this again. If you want me in future you'll have to pay me monthly for the work I have done during that month." I then did one more contract with the agency on that basis, and then they subsequently lost the contract to another agent that undercut their price ... and from what I heard provided a worse service

modicasa

I love living and working here, but one of the things that really gets to me is the fact that nearly everybody will happily take on a worker and then not pay them. Its not just bars and shops which routinely promise to pay back wages thereby keeping the employee in a state of near slavery because they are always owed 3/6/12 months salary. Public administration is just as bad - we have council staff who havent been paid for over a year, firemen waiting 9 months for a salary - and the assumption is that the family will rally round and pay their mortgage and help out with the bills. A mate of mine is a tiler, and he is owed money from the last 3 companies he has worked for - the reason why he left. He recently did a 90mq terrace for a client, who when he finished told him he'd be paid when he had the money. Seeing central government doesnt pay its bills or send comunes what is owed to them, its a top down problem, and its only getting worse. The minister Santanchè has recently been exposed for doing the same thing as well as asset stripping companies, but says when she gets up in the morning and looks in the mirror she likes what she sees.

daniel_t

So tempted to say politically incorrect things, but I shouldn't shame anybody for anything. Might as well say she must be blind - if she likes what she sees.

modicasa

I think you could make an exception with la Santanchè

mah88

Essentially, it seems to be best to avoid working in Sicily unless it's for an international company.

daniel_t

Ultimately it's down to personal choice. It does depend on who is at the helm as well as the organisational culture. An Italian-registered SME headed by enlightened English-speaking executives can be as well run as an international company.

I've also seen the Italian subsidiary of a few non-Italian companies being plagued by issues of dishonesty, inefficiency and grossly unfair practice, while their subsidiaries outside Italy are better run. Not going to mention any names here.

The (British) sense of fair play is out of the question in most places in Italy, but I think the Italians are slowly picking up this concept.

mah88

Thanks for your input.