sunnysider

I know that place near Piccadilly and once met one of the senior bods - may have been the consul himself. Not sure if it's still there.

My thoughts of phoning the consulate in London for clarification on this manner weren't, er, exactly, far advanced. I well remember many years ago asking them about the formalities/paper exchange needed to get married in Italy. It became clear to me that the person giving me the advice didn't really understand things themselves. And then I think it became clear to them as well as they ended up saying "why don't you get married in the UK". !!!

Am afraid that despite yours and Capo Boi's claims that folk worry too much I am afraid I find it hard to agree, despite the fact that you are both there and clearly old hands. Just take the unholy *** up that has been this witholding tax. It's beyond a bad sick joke.

And every Italian I think still remembers when Amato (I think it was that infamous topo) suddenly woke up one morning and decided to raid their bank accounts.

thanks to all on this thread - I may be back in other threads with more nervous questions

be gentle with me

Sancho

http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2014...uta-20/887530/

Just to be clear, they say they've suspended the withholding tax (until the first of July), not revoked it. That could mean

a) just what it says - there's got to be a first time I suppose;

b) that they're working on a new formulation of the tax, that'll be workable (the old version was riddled with complications) or that'll calm people they don't want to offend ("poteri forti"), or something

c) that they won't be bringing it in at all, ever, but don't want to admit defeat because it'd be losing face, and in any case they want to keep people afraid

etc, or some combination of the above, or something else.

My own feeling is that it'd be best to be wary, that the thing was probably brought in because of difficulties they had in collecting IVAFE (what they say about not needing the tax because of new ways of being able to find out about foreign accounts sounds like bluff), and that if they were thinking of going for resident foreigners they won't be giving up the idea just yet.

sunnysider

Thanks for the cautionary note Sancho.

And for the additional press clip.

I will take your advice.

And be careful.

I can't help but feel that some who say "hey don't worry, this is the Italian way, it's no problem, things always work like this" have been seduced by the Italian dream. Which is fine if you can manage it.

But it seems to me (folk feel free to challenge this view of what is driving these increasingly desperate measures) that the mid 20th century Italian dream is over, the Italian state is desperate for cash, the national debt that was over 120 per cent of GDB 25 years ago (so that it seemed, hey, no great problem) has finally come home to roost, so much tax has been fiddled over so many years by all and sundry on a spectacular scale, so much has been sucked out of the pot by funny state jobs and spectacularly mad pensions that the state is desperate.

Desperate people and entities the world over do desperate unpredictable things.

Thanks again, do keep posting your news.

sunnysider

sorry - another post apologies if I'm being a pain to the forum.

If it was at all evident that that was what they were up to with these laws, particularly with regard to foreigners from the EU, wouldn't that cause major issues with Europe?

jiminalpago

Although it has consistently baffled me that so many Italian decrees are quickly shown to be unworkable, I doubt that the thought of a few hundred expats who have kept a foothold in the old country ever was a consideration.
We all know that lots of Italians have property of various types outside of the country and that these people avoid paying taxes; the UK authorities are complicit in this as they grant very rich Italians a haven (Rossi, Briatore anyone?)as do Switzerland, Monaco, etc. I see nothing wrong in the Italian state trying to collect the taxes due.
One thing that strikes me in this and related threads is that when anyone quotes the Italian regulations verbatim, they invariably reflect common sense and they are not a million miles away from British regulations in the same field.
And to show that I am willing to poke a stick into a wasp's nest, I have just been to the Agenzia delle Entrate to ask for an attestato di residenza...., never having filled in a tax return yet. They were puzzled but perfectly civil; I should have it in a few days. I will post if it all goes pear-shaped.

Sancho

Good point!

Isakat

A bit of good news for you, I did not read the whole thread, so apologies if it was posted before:

http://www.tesoro.it/ufficio-stampa/...cato_0046.html

sunnysider

Have you seen this thread Jim?

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=823265

As someone who has been keeping a watching brief on IVIE since it came in it soon became clear to me that the folk who wrote the law had ***er all idea what its import was themselves.

nicktonight

Hi Jim - I hope you are not suggesting that it is right for the Italian Government to tax citizens from other EU countries who come and live and work in Italy for various reasons in order to recover money they think should be paid by wealthy Italians who have left their home country deliberately to avoid paying tax. Rossi and Briatore do not have to pay IVIE whereas a very large number of people from other EU countries (Poland, Romania etc) with houses in their home county do.
No other country in Europe has any tax like the IVIE

sunnysider

And another case of Italian "clarity", transparency, moral logic.

It was very definitely the case only a few years ago (and I would guess still is since I don't think this ever became a news story) that rather a lot of Italian state employees posted in the UK could successfully claim, by some incredibly tortured Italian legal reasoning, that they were entitled to a 50 per cent reduction in their UK council tax on the basis that they had another home in Italy.

(and of course this could be rented out in their absence).

What the moral logic for this was I never understood. Services provided to house in UK, you pay for it like any Brit, or for that matter American, Aremenian, French person. Services provided to place in Italy, that paid for as well. That doesn't seem pernicious to me - two houses, two lots of services.

If the Italian state had thought this an unfair burden to these well paid Italians abroad they could have paid them more.

Why they should have received a discount on the UK council tax I don't know.

In the light of this, IVIE is even more pernicious.

sunnysider

Well said, I've heard of cases of cleaners from Romania in the houses of rich Italians being worried ** less by a fee imposed on their quite possibly simple place in Romania.

<edited for typo>

me me

Spain is trying to do all it can to tax people with foreign assets, but not as far as Italy it seems.

The IVIE tax you have is terrible, also sometimes expat keep a place in the UK for their own use when visiting, we did, so we made no income from the property.

jiminalpago

And to Nicktonight.
Hi!
I start from the point that I was a Civil Servant and that I can recognise what the Italian state is trying to do; that ex-pats have been caught up in it is "collateral damage".; as one of the people who might suffer I can empathise.
I maintain, however, that, in my opinion, no-one considered ex-pats in the formulation of the regulations because Italian decrees do not seem to be subjected to the same Departmental and constitutional scrutiny that is the norm in most countries.
As to whether "the folk that wrote the law etc."... I was struck by the detail of Concierge's (I think I'm right) post: assuming that it was from an Italian official source (and not from a consular or commercial source) I doubt that anyone in the Department controlling Inland Revenue would have a similar grasp of local Italian regulations.
No, I think the Italian government is targeting Italians. But I would, they have little to get from me!
Jim

sunnysider

I agree with you pretty much entirely Jim. I too can see what the Italian state is trying to do - there has been spectacular pretty much open tax fraud for years. They are trying, in a crude way, to claw this back. On the basis that two wrongs make a right.

I agree also that expats are "collateral" damage but think it entirely reasonable that folk outside the twisted world of Italy (there's a good quote from Giovanni Giolitti on this), European citizens, are considered.

This whole matter I see as a collision between two very different ways of doing things.

Which Italy is struggling to deal with in several areas I think. Folk do not want to do business with Italy because of bigger messes than this.

I also consider it reasonable that Italy check that its laws are complaint with Europe. I believe there has been a similar mess with the so-called google tax.

The extract that concierge posted (thank you concierge) may I think (someone feel free to correct me I'm on here to learn) have been written AFTER the original ill-thought out law. Hence mass confusion, alarm.

all the best

37100

I, too, agree. That is that the intent was to hit the many Italians with property abroad and expats are collateral damage.

Indeed, my post was from an offical source and written a few months ago specifically for clarification.

http://www.agenziaentrate.gov.it/wps...uzione+75e.pdf