sunnysider

Well yes I am non resident in Italy. I am in the UK.

But if I moved to Italy I would become Italian tax resident and would of course need an Italian bank account.

So to return to the question, do I have to sell up first, pay the proceeds into a UK account, THEN move to Italy, pay proceeds into an Italian account (to live off you Italian state bloodsuckers) to avoid this?

Or will they still try to take 20 per cent of what I am bringing into the country?

I stress that I am intent on doing everything legally and above board but I have no desire to be skinned.

So I need to plan ahead.

jiminalpago

1 Hour before your post I received conflicting advice from my bank, Unicredit!
They had had no advice from "head office", who were trying to get guidance from the Entrate.
In addition to us Brits, there are Italians working abroad and sending money to families here, lots of recipients of foreign pensions (in this area from Switzerland), and so on.
I read the info available as stating that a simple declaration to one's bank solves the problem. Let's hope so.
Someone mentioned above the UK state pension as being untaxed. If you are taxed in UK, your state pension is automatically included in your gross income for tax purposes.

modicasa

It is not applicable to businesses/Partite IVA, only to personal accounts. As the sale of a house is not a financial activity it will not be subject to the tax according to Unicredit. However, all the advice seems to be conflicting so until there is a clear guideline best not make false asssumptions.

Sancho

First of all, nobody seems to be sure just how this new withholding tax is going to work. To some extent that's par for the course in Italy. Different accountants have different ideas, etc. But now it's particularly bad.

So if anybody tells you this tax is going to work in such and such a way, doesn't apply to such and such, etc, he or she may turn out wrong. So may a bank. So may I. I doubt that even the Italian revenue ("Agenzia delle Entrate") are sure.

Which of course makes it even more difficult for you, and more important to be careful.

In the circumstances, I think you should wait a bit (a few weeks, say) and see if things get clearer. The whole thing might be found illegal and dropped, or it may be modified so as not to affect potential voters (e.g. Italians abroad and their families here), or whatever.

In the meantime, consider this scenario. You come to live in Italy, and take up residence, in the second half of this tax-year (which is the same as a calendar year in Italy). The later the better perhaps, to minimise the chances of argument. That, I think, should make you non-resident for 2014.

But you sell your house in the first half of this year. In June, say.

That, I think, should mean that at the time you make your first tax return, you haven't done anything with your house in the UK during any period of time that could concern the Italian revenue.

And while you're not resident in Italy (i.e. in the first half of the year), you can move as much money as you want over to Italy without worrying about this or any other Italian tax.

Just a line of thought to explore. As I said, I could well be wrong. The law may change, etc, etc. All you can do is wait and be careful.

clint

When I rang the bank yesterday they didn't know anything about it, when I went in to see them this morning the guy told me to do a autocertificazione stating that the bank transfer was not from property gain or financial activity (shares etc) abroad

Sancho

I think you'll find this clarifies things - http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/2014/...l?uuid=ABIEy6w

sunnysider

Hi modicasa

Many thanks for the reply but I don't understand how the sale of a house is not a financial transaction. And a personal one at that. Sell something (seen by many as an investment though it's actually the thing I live in), get money.

Do you have a source for the Unicredit opinion?

What does seem clear is that a lot is unclear.

No mystery at all why Italy is in such a mess and folk don't want to invest in it/do business with it.

thanks again for the reply on a fraught subject

sunnysider

I have already read that Sancho (and the comments from lots of Italians and a fair few foreigners working in Italy).

It wasn't reassuring.

<edited for typo only>

sunnysider

Sorry, my comments and questions are out of synch - tried to reply to this post last night on a mobile tablet but had a glitch.

many thanks for the time you put into your reply Sancho.

I understand (and appreciate the reasons for) your various disclaimers, but I am getting the feeling that the only safe thing to do (though this would seriously distort my life) is to sell up/earn any money/whatever while non resident in Italy, then bring proceeds to Italy.

They couldn't tax this could they?

Serious question.

but

sorry - sarky bit coming: I can then get an official declaration that I am entirely unproductive, have no plans to do any business, to employ anyone etc etc but just intend to watch RAI Uno all day/revel in the glories of the Renaissance. Anyone care to give me the number of this form? end of sarkiness - as you can tell this is getting to me

thanks again Sancho, and all

modicasa

OGGETTO:
Autocertificazione di esenzione dall’applicazione dell’art. 4 comma 2, DL. N. 167/90,
modificato dalla Legge 97/2013 (Trattenuta 20% su bonifici dall’estero)

Il sottoscritto (Nome Cognome) dichiara di non essere
soggetto alla trattenuta di cui all’oggetto, in quanto i bonifici a suo favore
provenienti dall’estero non riguardano le fattispecie di cui all’art. 44 comma
1, lett. a), c), d), h) e art. 67 comma 1, lett. b), c), e), f), h) del TUIR.

A ulteriore riprova, i bonifici transitati presso codesto
spettabile istituto di credito provano quanto sopra dichiarato.

In fede,

(NOME COGNOME)

This is the autocertfication that you need to complete take to the bank.

My unicredit sourse is Unicredit and the letter sent from HO to the bank directors.
A house sale is not a financial activity in that it is not deriving from sales of shares, dividends etc - and it is not redditual in that it is not earned money, but unearned income.

Sancho

Don't mention it. The line of thought I was suggesting hangs around the 183 day criterion for determining if you're tax-resident or not, of course, which I suppose could change, and an assumption that the tax won't be retroactive (ditto), etc, etc

I've just noticed this - page 8 of that Sole 24 Ore thing:

my italics. I wonder if it would affect you (unless you shifted the money before you became resident or something).

Are you absolutely SURE that you want to become resident in Italy ? You could live here for a good part of the year without being classed as resident.

nicktonight

Many thanks for the template modicasa which I will use today

According to my bank this 20 % withholding tax will be automatically applied to all bank transfers unless they receive this autocertificazione

sunnysider

Many thanks for that modicasa.

Many thanks indeed.

The definition of it not being affected because it's "unearned income" does seem curious though.

Apologies but my Italian is not up to reading Italian tax regulations (I have just fired something off to my Italian friend) but doesn't Sanchos post of today with that extract imply that tax would be payable on a property sale?

nicktonight

Question: if you sell a House in the UK in January and become an Italian resident in June of the same year are you are effectively an Italian resident for the whole of that tax year? and therefore taxable in Italy for income and capital gains earned during the first 5 months (minus any tax paid in UK of course)

sunnysider

Thank you Sancho.

Yes does look to be a matter of, er, concern.

I am just thankful that I have not already made the move.

Really appreciate your concern Sancho and I do take your point. I am now very seriously thinking of a life arrangement like this.
At least until Italy sorts itself out (in my lifetime? ) and starts framing proper laws which it understands itself and which are Europe-compliant or Europe simply abolishes it as part of a simplification programme.

@@@@

I am trying very hard to keep my posts on topic on the technical practical issues (and I thank you and all for adressing the points) but I cannot but help think of something an Italian friend said to me a couple of years ago - it could sound as if he was being nasty/malicious but though he is a bit of a dark soul I don't think he was, just being brutally honest.

He said:

"Do You know sunnysider, what Italians really want from foreigners? They want them to come to Italy on holiday, spend all their Euros, and then leave"