Donna Noble

Simple enough question: Is a UK will valid in Italy?

modicasa

No.
If you are British citizen you can elect to have British law (and therfore your British will) cover your succession - but you need to write it down with a holographic will, in Italian. Otherwise Italian succession law applies. From next year there are new European laws on wills and succession, but the UK has opted out - so it may all go pear shaped.

PSG2014

I thought that the UK had actually opted in (eventually!), also was not aware that it had to be in Italian ?!

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release....htm?locale=en

Back to the drawing board

modicasa

For anything to be valid legally in Italy it must be in Italian.

Donna Noble

Yes, I appreciate the fact that to be recognised under Italian law a document needs to be written in Italian. But like with birth, marriage certificates, etc, a document can be translated and legalised, when the time comes.

My solicitor says that she doesn't want to put in the line " .... This will is to cover all my assets in the UK and overseas ... " and that I need to make an Italian will for my Italian property. This just doesn't seem to be joined up thinking.

It would mean that my estate (for what it's worth), would have to be dealt with by two different solicitors (double costs) and it could mean potential conflict, for example if I had an off-shore account (which I don't but the principle stands) which solicitor would be responsible for distributing that?

I like the first suggestion above, to make a holographic will which would be identical to my uk will but made in Italian. But I also can't see why there would be a problem with putting in the line mentioned before, and then taking the will to an italian solicitor (the same that I did the house buying contract) and specify to the UK solicitor the name of my solicitor in Italy. Then when I die, the will gets translated legalised and the assets distributed as I would like ....

PS. my father-in-law lived in italy with us for the last two years of his life before passing away in Italy this year, he had a bank account here and the bank are accepting the translated will he made under Scottish law in order to distribute that money.

modicasa

A holographic will merely says that you wish all your goods in Italy to be disposed with according to the law of your nationality - which means it reverts to British succession law or your British will. It still means that your British will will have to be translated and codicilled for it to be used in Italy, and persuade the tax office etc that the succession can be done according to your wishes. However, without a holographic will at the minimum you will fall under the Italian succession law. You can happily put in your British will a line about your Italian property, but you need the Italian will to revert to your British will----

Donna Noble

Thank you modicasa. That seems clear, sensible and straightforward.

A silly question this, what is a holographic will? What are the specifications?

Has anyone else out there had experience of a similar situation?

modicasa

Its a very simple HANDWRITTEN will that says - in ITalian - that you, born in , resident in, CF and nationality, wish that in the event of your death wish your goods to be dealt with under the law of your nationality, i.e. British, and that is your will and wish.
SIgned and dated with place. It must be handwritten and legible, so no block capitals and no doctors scrawl. If your Italian isnt up to it, Im sure I posted the actual words on here some time ago.

Ruby2

I think this is the reference, modicasa.

Testamento olografo

I book-marked it following your post some time ago.

fleetwoodmac1975

Something important to add: regardless of which succession law applies' the taxation situation could still involve both countries.

modicasa

Thats the one Ruby - thanks.
Regarding taxation - the succession must still be done in Italy so taxes paid in Italy. If then the heir, having a second home abroad gets caught up in UK taxation then yes it becomes a can of worms.

fleetwoodmac1975

Not entirely correct.
Domicile will determine where taxes are paid for HMRC regardless of succession laws. Succession and taxes are two different things.
It is possible the OP may have to pay iht in Italy and also in the UK. The tax paid in Italy can be offest against the tax bill issued by HMRC.

However I would guess that the OP will not have to pay tax in Italy assuming his ITalian properties / assetsare worth less thatn 1million together.

modicasa

Obviously. But there is no IHT in Italy - there are taxes to pay on the succession which are different. If you a non resident in ITaly then you may eligible under UK law for IHT.

Ruby2

oh dear, you've lost me there. Can you explain?

Donna Noble

Yes, gosh, this is getting complicated because it's right that the tax situation needs to the taken into consideration. I understand a couple's joint IHT threshold in the UK is about £700k and in Italy it's €1 million. We're in those limits, but could the figures change in the future?

So is an estate taxed in the country where the will is held or in the domicile country at time of death? I'm resident in Italy. If I did do two wills as advised by the Uk solicitor, would one be tax in italy and the other in the UK? We do the 730 at the moment.

I have now called the solicitor's office in italy that did our house buying contract. He's calling me back. But basically they say that doing a holographic will mentioning property in the UK and that I want my UK will to respected in Italy is enough (as modicasa already said). I don't even actually have to deposit it with them but it might save time in the long run. In the meantime the UK will will also cross reference the Italian property and mention the holographic will I guess it could be scanned and sent to the uk solicitor.