C.2s

Hi All
​​​​​​In my time in Italy (I'm resident but not a citizen) I have gradually built up a lot of contacts in local tourism related businesses (hotels, restaurants, agriturismo, Airbnb, bars, vineyards, etc) and nearly all of the cycling businesses (repair shops, hire businesses, guides, etc). And I have been responsible for organizing an annual cycle tourism event, because I am the president of a cycling ASD. And I have experience of event management in the UK. Therefore I also have some experience of dealing with various organizations and the authorities (Ente, municipality, police, chamber of commerce, etc). And I have some financial management experience, mostly from things I did in the UK, but also with the relevant people here in Italy (tax office, insurance company, accountant, etc). Plus I have created websites and used social media marketing. I'm now planning to start a small business as a cycling tour organiser from January.

Without giving too much detail at the moment, the plan is that I would put together a package which I would promote to the participants. They would pay me. I would keep s percentage and I would pay all the other businesses involved (those mentioned above) that are actually providing the service. I think there is a market for this because a lot of the businesses either can't communicate well in English and therefore aren't getting as many foreign clients as they might, AND/OR don't have the time/wish to organize a package type tour.

I have a partita Iva already from self-employed teaching which is generic for 'personal services '. I already know that I need to pay INPS and probably get a new codice fiscale for the business. I know that I need to inform the comune and camera commerciale. And also know that the flat rate 15% tax will apply. And that I can use paper (not electronic) invoices and receipts.

Does anyone have any experience of this sort of thing, or something similar? And do you have any advice that you can give me?

Thanks for reading and ( in anticipation of) your replies

philat98

Do you know that there is much demand for this type of holiday? You would have to get a lot of bookings to make it worthwhile. I suspect like everything in Italy there is a lot of bureaucracy.
In a village near where I live an 80 year old country woman was arrested for selling coccaine. The police found a mountain of cash in the house. Now thats a more profitable business but with a few more risks.

C.2s

Obviously the bureaucracy is a given.

Yes there's a demand for this. There is already an existing market, which is supposed to be getting bigger post-pandemic, but that of course means there's a lot of existing competition too. This is a small business (as I said) so I'm looking to fill a niche which I think exists. There's a growing infrastructure for cycle tourism and slow tourism in the area, with a couple of hotels rebranding as 'bike friendly' and a big increase in bike hire thanks mainly to the ebike trend. And there are new cycle paths. Some already built and some proposed (we'll see if they ever get done!). But a lot of the local Italian businesses aren't great at communication in English and aren't really that aware of what cyclists actually want. And so that's where I come in

However, as with any new business there's a risk that it won't succeed. I should really have specified that this is a lifestyle business (not all about making massive profits) .... not sure I fancy the lifestyle of a cocaine dealer!! :-)

modicasa

Depending on your age you could even opt for 5% tax for the first few years. However, bear in mind that electronic invoicing will become mandatory for all partite IVA over the next couple of years (depending on the whims of Giorgia). I suspect you will have to add a sub category to your P.Iva too to cover tourism, travel agency and intermediaries or somesuch. Then you will need to decide if you are doing it as a ditta individuale or a company - which would have more sway with your incoming clients, which means you would need an inscription at the REA. I dont know whether you could do it as a persona fisica - if you can then it would save a headache or two. Id suggest going to see a commercialista, because you can't afford to fall foul of INPS or the AdE at the outset. Good luck.

C.2s

Thanks for your comments modicasa.

​​​​​​I agree with what you say about getting it right at the outset. I think that the first phase of the business is going to be all focused on these aspects and will take take time. But I have a bit of a pressing issue about healthcare to consider (which I will explain below).
Yes I have been to my commercialista. They seemed to think that the partita Iva code I have is okay, but they would have to check (with the AdE).
We talked about the chamber of commerce. Is the REA the same thing? I have had some dealings with them as my association got their patrocinio last year, so I think that will be something I can manage. I think that I wouldn't qualify for the 5% flat rate tax because it will be seen as a continuation of the existing business (I don't know what the age limit is). The question of a ditta individuale or a company is an interesting one. I'm not sure I fully understand the implications. But yes it's possible that potential customers would prefer a company.

The other option that has been suggested by Italian friends is an association. I could qualify as a cycle tour guide and then have a 'scuola' association. And people who participated in tours would thus become enrolled as soci and covered by the insurance of the association. It's possible that I could even use the existing cycling association. Or so they say. I'm not sure that I like this idea because of the way it would seem to potential participants and because it might be really difficult for me to be a cycle guide and also do all the managing of the other aspects of the tour... but on the other hand employing a cycle guide costs €100-200 per day (plus food and accommodation).

​​​​​​Does anyone know if having an association or company qualifies you for healthcare? Currently we have an ongoing issue with ASL about our post Brexit status (basically they don't understand our rights under the WA). It's now November so it's not worth worrying about for this year,. My wife is going to take early retirement so she won't be able to qualify. So our options for next year seemed to be that we pay for private insurance or pay ASL based on our income (from her private pension and investments). Thus when the commercialista suggested that I would have to pay INPS that seemed like quite a good thing...it would be less than the other two options.

modicasa

An association is much more complicated than you're allowing for - with financial checks and accountability, rotating elected officers and so on - precisely because an association is an easy way to get round the fiscal rules. If you have an association of non riconosciuti - ie people as opposed to a society, then you have all the financial burden for loss and debt. As president you can earn up to around 12000 pa. You need at least 3 people to form one (presidnet, vice and secretary), and its an atto notarile which constitutes the association. But it is possible, and you would be allowed to do one for 'sport dilettantistiche' but whether that allows you to be a tour manager I couldnt say. But bear in mind that an association is primarily a company which doesnt have profit as its aim. its not a scopo di lucro - its there for the common good and not a business.

The REA is the new version of the Chamber of Commerce (CCIAA). AS far as form goes, you could have a dittà individuale or a societa semplice (to keep things simple), unless you want to opt for a limited company to protect you financially.

C.2s

Hmmm... interesting points. Thanks. I was never keen on starting a new association. And I much prefer the option of a ditta individuale, because I don't want to avoid any of the fiscal rules. Partly because ethically it seems right, but above all because my commercialista said that paying privately for ASL (if I have no employment) as opposed to paying INPS etc through a ditta individuale is more or less the same...as as you said the ditta individuale is easier. Both to set up and to manage (you have autonomy in decision making).

On the other hand I am at the moment already president of an ASD. I say 'at the moment' as a new committee is due to be elected in a few weeks. I expect I will be reelected, but you never know! Now I understand why some people I speak with react with some suspicion. They probably think I am doing it to avoid tax. Whereas I do it on a completely voluntary, unpaid basis. We organize cycling events. Last year the largest had 125 participants, and was a cicloturismo. So we already organize, in various ways, many of the elements that would be involved in the business I am going to open. For example we ( in reality about 90% of it was 'me' not 'we') organized mechanical assistance from a local cycle shop which was considered as a donation from a sostenitore, and discounts with hotels etc as strutture convenzionate, and punti ristoro that were a mixture of volunteers, donations and organized visits to vineyards etc...so a bit different. But the restaurant where we organized our Pasta Party lunch at the finish works on the basis that the participants pay us and we (me) pay the restaurant. Same for the insurance, etc etc.
So more or less exactly the same as I propose with the smaller groups. In the past the association organized many more events than we do now, but eventually the president (who did almost all the work himself) had enough. I think that I might propose to the soci that I will organize more events...if the association pays me! It'll be interesting to see how they react!! :-)

All joking aside, it would make the association more sustainable in the long term.

modicasa

Your problem with doing all that as a business is that you'd have to be IVA registered, which means 22% on your income and outgoings and all the bookkeeping that goes with that. And at that point your businesses who help will probably want to offset their help in some way for their IVA, and your soci who pay will not want to pay IVA - which leaves you with an antirecycling problem for which you would be solely responsible. Personally I can cope with electronic fatture, and all the rest, but antirecycling is such a pain in the neck as to make me want to chuck it all in. Of course it depends where you are, and if the GdF round your way are happy cyclists, because you'll want to keep them sweet.

C.2s

Okay...

Firstly thanks once again for all this advice.

I was sort of aware of this IVA malarkey but never heard it referred to as 'antireycling' before. It was one of the potential worries that I had. And yes, you're right it's not a very appealing thought.

Are you saying that this would be the same whether I:
a) opened a ditta individualeAnd/or
b) used the existing association Or only in one of those two instances?
​​​​
I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't possible to simply continue as a teacher/translator of English, and bill the businesses as a sort of "English communication consultant."

​​​​​As I said I already have a partita Iva for this. If I make sure I don't earn more than €5000 a year I guess I wouldn't pay tax. And I am not sure if I can then register with ASL with that as my employment. Previously my wife was a self employed artisan (she's now going to retire) and that was sufficient to register with ASL even though she effectively never earnt anything or paid any tax (chiefly because of the pandemic). Or if not I will just pay the voluntary contribution

I do think I could ,as a volunteer, organize more individual day/weekend events within the scope of the existing association without that causing a problem for the association.

​​​​I should say again (because I think it's worth repeating) that my aim isn't to avoid tax. I don't mind paying but obviously it's a lifestyle business with the dual aim of helping the community, and therefore whatever option I go for has to be financially viable in the long run cause I can't really afford to lose money by doing it
​

GeorgeYoung

A couple of thoughts that occur to me as a complete non-expert:

1) Is there an option of becoming a representative or agent for an existing organisation? Essentially becoming their UK/US facing representative and becoming either an employee or another company or self-employed but being paid by the Italian company for professional services and, therefore, presumably limiting your outgoings & liabilities? Like I say, I'm no expert but I worked in Italy for 5 years as a freelance translator under the forfettario scheme and was no worse off than doing the same job in the UK.

2) I know that in many cities & regions of Italy, tour guides have to be authorised and there may even be a concorso. Are you aware if any such regulations would apply to someone offering the services you're considering to provide? Would you be taking guests out on rides or just facilitating self-guided tours?

C.2s

Thanks George. I think the points you make are very pertinent.

1. Yes. Some form of collaboration with an existing tour provider is an option that I am exploring. There are two potential agencies that operate in the area near me that offer tours, including walking/hiking tours, but don't have cycling options. In many the component parts of their tours are exactly the same as I am proposing (Was it Mark Twain who said there's no such thing as a new idea?). Except they don't have the cycling contacts. So I am talking to them about essentially working for them (in one of the ways you suggest) to add to their existing portfolio. It's a possibility, and we're discussing how it might work. There is another local organisation that does cycling tours, but they are essentially the sort of physically demanding sporting tour... not the 'slow' tourism, in depth cultural type of thing that I would prefer to do. So again it might be possible to work with them, but I get the impression that they are less keen.

2. The status of a cycling guide is a bit odd. As I understand it (and I am simplifying things) there was a situation with skiing where some regions (perhaps not just in Italy) tried to restrict who could be a guide (or instructor), so that only local guides could be employed. In the end the EU intervened and said they couldn't do that because of the equal right to work anywhere in the EU, but of course each EU state can decide how they implement this. So this means that Italy applied a typical Italian solution of leaving it to the regions. And now there's a hotchpotch of rules in different parts of Italy, where basically everyone has the equal right to register as a guide, but the requirements for registering and the way you register is different.
Added to this is that cultural and social activities are regulated in Italy in the context of the Italian experience of the how Mussolini and the fascists controlled those sort of activities. So there are a number of different organisations (ENTE) that clubs must register with. My association is part of UISP , which was originally founded after WW2 by socialists. Today it's no longer political, but it still has a sort of socialist, equality for all, type outlook.It does sport for the great unwashed masses. It's a bit like the way that the Co-op supermarket chain or a building society or mutual society in the UK sometimes talk about their roots. If you're familiar with the Monty Python Judean People's Front sketch you'll be able to imagine it. Apologies if I am telling you what you already know... anyway the point is that each of these ENTE offer different training courses to become a guide. And some regions recognize some training courses and not others. This is a problem when one wants to organize cycling tours which cross different regions (which is obviously more likely with a cycling tour). At the moment I am looking at three possible solutions to this problem:

1. I employ someone who is already a recognized guide. I have a meeting tomorrow morning with a guy I know who is guide. I'll have to see how the conversation goes, but yes it might be that I pay him (and I would obviously include that cost in the fees I charge participants).

2. I get qualified myself. In the long run this would probably save money as I wouldn't have to pay someone else. The FCI (Italian Cycling Federation) is arguably the most universally recognized ENTE in the cycling sphere. It's the one that oversees professional cycling, do it's much more professional elite sportsperson orientated than UISP. But it does also do cycle tourism, and they offer a course to become a "Guida Ciclo -Turistica Sportiva" .... which I could do. The next course starts in January and is mostly online apart from three lessons that are about two hours drive from where I live. Unfortunately it's combined with another course to become a MTB instructor for kids, and I am not really so interested in that. I don't think there's a stand alone option. And it costs €600, plus I would have to join the FCI as an individual... Or the FCI would also be happy if I moved my association from UISP to them...

Or
3. Make the tours self guided with gps routes, as you suggested
;-)

philat98

Have you looked at this German company doing a similar thing? Guided and unguided routes. He has the website in 4 languages. In Umbria most of the foreign tourists are German and Dutch.
https://www.meravigliosaumbria.com/nl/fietsverhuur/

modicasa

In Sicily the tours are not guided (possibily due to the blue badge rules on guides - instead they are sent on their way with a map and then met after a couple hours with a minibus with brunch and a lift for those who dont want to cycle any more. This goes on for a week, with cyclists just cycling, and other people taking them to lunch, hotel, pumping up their tyres, transporting, etc. One of the companies is inntravel.co.uk.

GeorgeYoung

Out of interest, in which region are you based? There seems to be plenty of information around about courses and requirements for "accompagnatore cicloturistico/a", some positive and some negative. As you say, there is plenty of regional variance in these titles.

Good luck with it anyway, if you're already in with some of the local cycling bodies, I'm sure that will be a very good starting point.

C.2s

Thanks for your various comments and suggestions.

I'm in Lazio but near to Umbria and Tuscany.

The "Marvellous Umbria" tour website is interesting. I've been cycling in that area many times and some of the infrastructure (marked cycle routes and dedicated cycle paths) is a bit better than here , and to a certain extent this area is always looking at our two northern friends and sometimes learning from them. I note that particular company is based in Switzerland. Yes the ability to communicate in more than one language is useful. Within the partnership that I am developing we have Italian, Danish, Dutch and English... and a potential German contact. German and Dutch are probably the largest groups that visit here, but in a way English is still more important because there's also tourists from lots of different countries, and most Germans and Dutch speak English anyway :-)

I can see the attraction of Inntravel to people who live in the UK and want to cycle in Europe but don't want the fuss of organizing hotels etc and are more likely to trust a British firm. I wonder who actually provides all the elements of the package? By coincidence I was in Sicily last month touring the island with my motorhome. I did some cycling there also. Mt Etna and parts of the long distance cross island routes etc. Unfortunately, I have to say that I found it a little bit challenging from a tourist perspective even though I have a good knowledge of Italian habits, customs and language. A lot of the interactions with tourist facing businesses were more difficult than I would have expected (and let's not even mention the rubbish!). In my experience the cycle routes exist more in theory than in practice. Signs warning drivers on dual carriageway that they might encounter cyclists isn't really a cycle route! I'd definitely recommend anyone who isn't familiar with Italy and able to communicate in Italian to consider a tour if they want to cycle in Sicily.

Self guided tours are okay. I think that they are really aimed at people who are competent cyclists that are relatively fit whereas in this area recently we've seen an increase in people who are... how can I put it politely...er...less confident. Maybe it's a post pandemic thing connected to people wanting different types of holiday experience. i think sometimes people fall into to the trap of thinking about cycling as a thing for people who are a little bit obsessed with it as a sport...sure that exists but there's a market to cater for all types of people.
It's like anything. Think about the vast range of different types of food and drink businesses or the different types of places where you can sleep (from tents to treehouses to barges to five star hotels etc etc etc). The local authorities in my region have 5 million of EU euros sitting in their bank accounts earmarked for spending on cycling infrastructure in the next few years. Some of the work has started. And they seem to understand that means making flat, safe cycle paths, which are a little bit boring for cyclists like me (!),, but very much targeted at tourism. They want 2.5 million more...I don't think that Meloni will give it to them because they have cut back on few spending, so they might have to downgrade their plans a bit. And then of course having money to spend and knowing how to spend doesn't mean that it won't all disappear in Italian bureaucracy ... but if they do manage to get their act together there will be opportunities to connect those cycle paths and tourists to local businesses (of the type I have mentioned before).