JACHA

Sunnysider Force of Destiny continually mentions the laziness of the Italian people however I think it is laziness about becoming united rather than laziness as in lifestyle. I call it apathetic as Australians can be a bit like that regarding anything political if you know what I mean. Australians are also a bit state foucused.I come from South Australia (don't live there now though) and it is still a pride thing that it was not setlled by convicts.lol. So I probaly relate to the province issue.

JACHA

Finally I have finished the book. It was very interesting and I learnt a lot. It appears that not a whole lot has changed in 155 years. Reading the book got me interested in Italy's economy now which isn't too bad. Pity about the debt though. I'm not sure that anything will change for Italian economy unless Italians go through a massive effiency program. However that is very easy for me to say living in Australia.
I am reluctant to go on about the questions the book has raised for me as this post would end up very long. My biggest surprise was that Italy lost so many in the first World War. 600.000 lives were a lot. I have not checked this out to see if it is true. A lot of comments about tax are still appropriate today. The book states that in the 18th and early 19th century it was a patriotic duty not to pay tax.lol
So thanks for the suggestion of the book I will now go back to some simple whodunnits (christmas presents) and leave Mussolini for later in the year.
Hope you all have a good 2016 and thanks for all the help in 2015.
Regards

philat98

Yes they are still doing their patriotic duty...
Tax dodgers cost Italy €122 billion in 2015 - The Local

JACHA

Hi All
Well I have finished the book on Mussolini. It has been so hot here that when I came home from work have been happy to sit in the airconditioning and read. It was a hard slog I must admit.
I did enjoy it and it made me think of my own country. Australia really celebrates ANZAC DAY (April 25) and the crowds are getting bigger every year especially at the dawn service. Even though it is recognition of the first world war it as seen as defining the country and the "aussie spirit " was born.
It appears that Mussolini saw the population of not having any "spirit" so to speak. What is your view and for those of you who have read the book and live in Italy now.
The Italians who came to Australia before,during,or after the war were seen as hard working,fun loving and kind. They were also interred here during the war.
Thanks for recommending the books as I learnt a lot.
Regards

ononno

The majority of Italians are indeed hard working, fun loving, and very kind. What they don't have, even after 150 years, is a sense of 'nation', of civic duty; and have a sensible reliance on their own resources rather than those of any imposed authority, from wherever it may come.

sunnysider

To clarify Jacha, which is the Mussolini book you refer to above?

By the way, with regard to your comment above about the Italian suffering in the first world war, at the risk of increasing your reading burden, i can recommend The White War by mark thompson (google it, i can't get a link in on this tab) - i have the impression that the anglo world knows very little indeed about the italian experience - it was at least as terrible as the western front, in some ways far worse.

JACHA

The book was Facist Voices. Yes sunnysider I too was surprised that Italy lost 600,000 people. That was my point about Anzac day. Australia lost 60,000 people from a population of 5 million. What surprises me more is that Italy does not seem to recognise there own losses like other countries do.
Ononno - Maybe Italians need to know how respected and loved some of their national things are. My husband loves alfa's and has always done so and currently drives one, any Italian house product whether it be furniture, kitchen stuff including coffee machines are considered must haves, and throw in the odd fashion item. I could go on and on.
Sad really. But by not having a sense of "nation" what effect does this have on the country.
Thanks

sunnysider

Ah, fascist voices. So jacha, can i ask what impression you were left with after reading it? Your views on the degree of popular consent/enthusiasm for Benito?

With regard to the other point, i am afraid an appreciation of good design/nice household products doesn't of itself produce a sense of nationhood/community/civics. Nor do all the renaissance madonnas.

Ps - i would question the idea that italy does not recognise its ww1 losses. In my experience there are lots of ww1 memorials in italy. Their particular design, when they were put up, the not uncommon later changes to them is a subject in itself.

ononno

In fact these talents demonstrate admirably the effect at a civic level of the Italians favouring appearances over substance. It used to take my wife at least two hours to get ready just to pop out to the shop for a loaf of bread!

sunnysider

After all that troublei/investment i trust she did an encore and popped back out for a pot of jam.

All the best

JACHA

Sunnysider I enjoyed both books and can see why people would be attracted to his policies. Except his policy on going to university and getting above your station. Such an english view I thought.
From reading these books and my visits to Italy my view is that nothing has changed much in Italy. Everything in Italy appears to be so complicated and one has to have the never say die attitude to get things done( eg permesso di soggiorno, opening a bank acc).
I didn't mean just monuments in recognizing the war efforts I meant a national day similar to what we and lots of other countries have.
I feel that Italy has missed the boat in becoming a "world power" but maybe the opportunity was never there in the first place. Mind you the Australian governement probably only thinks that America is the world power worth worrying about. Australia will never be a world power(except for hopefully in the cricket) and accept that we are such a small country that we can't compete.
I will not even go there about how long it takes to get ready to go anywhere. It is secret women's business. Suffice to say the older I get the longer it takes.
Regards

sunnysider

There is a day jacha, november 4*.

I think there is also a separate (more recent?) Armed forces day, though others on here will be able to expand on this/correct me.

* once described to me as commemorsting VICTORY in ww1, which i thought telling, and which also explained the nature of some of those memorials. And the later changing of a fair few.

JACHA

Sunnysider Do you know why the King was made to leave Italy when Italy became a Republic. It says in the book it was because of the referendum in 1946/7. Does this mean that the King was held responsible in some way for the state Italy was in or the people got sick of the King.
I should add that I do love visiting Italy as it really is a beautiful place and all the reading hasn't changed that and I can be accused of seeing the country as a tourist only.
Thanks as always and I am glad that Italy takes a day to remember. Such a waste of life.

ononno

The Savoy dinasty as it was in 1945 ha become tainted with its association with and support of fascism. Vittorio Emmanuele III became unpopular because a) he put his signature to the unpopular race laws in 1938, and b) because he scarpered from Rome in September 1943 leaving it to its fate under the Nazis. He was forced to abdicate in favour of his more popular son Umberto in May 1946.When the closely faught referendum on monarchy/republic was held in June 1946, the republicans won, and Umberto was forced into exile in Portugal. June 2nd. became a National Day holiday as the proclomation of the republic.
Vittorio Emmanuele spent his exile in Alessandria in Egypt. Apri 25th. is also a National Holiday marking the day that war ended in Italy and the execution of Mussolini.

JACHA

Thanks onono the books don't really go into as much detail as you have provided neither does wikepedia.
Have a good day
Regards