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Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Old Dec 7th 2006, 2:24 pm
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Default Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Hi,

I have just joined this group. We moved here at the end of August and are slowly finding our feet!! I need to register with the health system but - WOW - what a hassle!! We have already had a visit from the police for our certificato di residenza so our sons can play football after we paid 90 euros for medical certificates!!

An Italian lady told me that because we are EU we don't NEED a permesso di sioggiorno... Also, the laws have changed and no longer necessary. Neither myself or my husband are working out here but we have 3 children under 10 and need a better system for medical care (and I am pregnant).

Any advice with as little queueing as possible would be greatly appreciated!

Regards, Sarah
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Old Dec 8th 2006, 12:55 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Hi Sarah,

We have been here since July 2006 and my husband works (I do not). We went to get the permesso from the Questura but were basically told by the official they had more important things to worry about than giving us a permesso (like immigrants from other countries) and that as we were in the EU we could go where we wanted anyway - it was just extra paperwork and red tape. Now, whether this was because he did not want to do it or it was true I do not really know.

We then went to get our doctor arranged and were told we needed the permesso! We had our Italian ID cards, British passports, Codice Fiscale, driving licence but none of that was good enough! So we were stuck really.

We have since found out about the EU health cards, which SHOULD be enough to get a doctor here, and have now got one of them each (you can do this online) but have not managed to get back to the health centre yet to see if this will actually be OK. Fingers crossed!

In an emergency if you turn up at a hospital with your EU passport they have to treat you as far as I know, but clearly you don't want to rely on that and you will be needing some sort of medical care for your pregnancy.

Hope you manage to get something sorted soon.
Carrie
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Old Dec 10th 2006, 3:13 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Hi Carrie,

Thanks for the reply! We have the EU Health Cards you mentioned but, as you suggested, they are not enough either as we have tried.

I have read other letters on other sites saying a similar thing - that permessos were not recommended/needed for British people so, what are we all supposed to be doing???

I have decided to go back to the UK to have the baby as I have also read about the 'primitiveness' of some of the hospitals here and don't want to risk it. I need some check ups but will do them privately.

If I find out any more, I will let you know! Let's just hope we all stay healthy - keep drinking the olive oil!

Sarah

Originally Posted by CarrieW
Hi Sarah,

We have been here since July 2006 and my husband works (I do not). We went to get the permesso from the Questura but were basically told by the official they had more important things to worry about than giving us a permesso (like immigrants from other countries) and that as we were in the EU we could go where we wanted anyway - it was just extra paperwork and red tape. Now, whether this was because he did not want to do it or it was true I do not really know.

We then went to get our doctor arranged and were told we needed the permesso! We had our Italian ID cards, British passports, Codice Fiscale, driving licence but none of that was good enough! So we were stuck really.

We have since found out about the EU health cards, which SHOULD be enough to get a doctor here, and have now got one of them each (you can do this online) but have not managed to get back to the health centre yet to see if this will actually be OK. Fingers crossed!

In an emergency if you turn up at a hospital with your EU passport they have to treat you as far as I know, but clearly you don't want to rely on that and you will be needing some sort of medical care for your pregnancy.

Hope you manage to get something sorted soon.
Carrie
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Old Dec 11th 2006, 9:45 am
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Good choice to go home! At least your kids can get double citizenship that way, only problem is that you have to wait 2 months before you can fly with a newborn so coming back may take a while.
I hav
e been living over here for quite a few years now and the permesso di soggiorno is an essential ingredient if you don't want too much hassle. I have to show them all the paperwork under the sun just to get my Italian id renewed.
At the end of the day it's not all that difficult to get, you just have to be patient. Most questura have a European day when you can avoid the queues and be seen quickly, they take loads of photocopies and then sit on them for approx three months before giving you back a piece of paper.
My parents bought a house over here last year and they had to go through all the same hassle, they had to show that they had savings to live on and a regular income into an Italian bank from their pensions, but that was all. Still took three months to be processed all the same.
Once you've got your permesso you can get everything else - health cards, id cards, etc.
Unfortunately there are no short cuts over here and even if they say there are you find out later that it's not true and spend months sorting out the mess.
If you've got kids and want to get them registered with a doctor the only way is to wade through the paperwork.
Whilst you're in the UK stock up on baby milk - I was using aptamil for mine (£5.95 from local clinic) and when I checked up over here it was €32 and you could only get in the chemists.
Good luck with the pregnancy, we're thinking of trying for another early next year (hopefully only one this time!) but the thought of going back home again is a bit of a downer, especially as my husband can't come over for all that time.....
we'll see what happens in the new year

all the best

k.
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Old Dec 12th 2006, 9:01 am
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Hi Kathryn,

Thanks for the reply. A couple more questions for you! How come the baby would have double citizenship if born in England? We are both British and surely we would just get a normal British passport?

Also, why 2 months before we can travel back? Is it to do with the jabs and do they do the same ones over here? We may be travelling back by car - would that make a difference?

We have since been told that Europeans now don't need a permesso as the law changed on the 6th Novenber! We now have ID cards...also codice fiscale...and certificato di residenza. My husband has also just bought an Italian car (with a per. di sogg) ... Or maybe it just depends on who you get!!!

Good luck with the next baby!

Regards, Sarah

Originally Posted by kathrynverona
Good choice to go home! At least your kids can get double citizenship that way, only problem is that you have to wait 2 months before you can fly with a newborn so coming back may take a while.
I hav
e been living over here for quite a few years now and the permesso di soggiorno is an essential ingredient if you don't want too much hassle. I have to show them all the paperwork under the sun just to get my Italian id renewed.
At the end of the day it's not all that difficult to get, you just have to be patient. Most questura have a European day when you can avoid the queues and be seen quickly, they take loads of photocopies and then sit on them for approx three months before giving you back a piece of paper.
My parents bought a house over here last year and they had to go through all the same hassle, they had to show that they had savings to live on and a regular income into an Italian bank from their pensions, but that was all. Still took three months to be processed all the same.
Once you've got your permesso you can get everything else - health cards, id cards, etc.
Unfortunately there are no short cuts over here and even if they say there are you find out later that it's not true and spend months sorting out the mess.
If you've got kids and want to get them registered with a doctor the only way is to wade through the paperwork.
Whilst you're in the UK stock up on baby milk - I was using aptamil for mine (£5.95 from local clinic) and when I checked up over here it was €32 and you could only get in the chemists.
Good luck with the pregnancy, we're thinking of trying for another early next year (hopefully only one this time!) but the thought of going back home again is a bit of a downer, especially as my husband can't come over for all that time.....
we'll see what happens in the new year

all the best

k.
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Old Dec 12th 2006, 12:02 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Hi there,
if your child is born in the uk to british parents they automatically get a british passport, but if they then move overseas and live in the country for more than a certain time period they can also ask for citizenship in the country they live in. More importantly, if I'd given birth over here then my kids wouldn't have had an automatic right to a british passport but would have had to reside in the country before requesting citizenship - this is what they told me at Leeds Council offices!
The flying problem is a rule set up by the airlines - it has nothing to do with vaccinations, just something they've decided. If you drive then there are no problems. I drove back to the UK but flew back after the birth and sent my dad back in the car, long journeys in a car seat for newborns aren't recommended - it's not good for their breathing. Vaccinations in Italy are completely different to UK ones for timing, the first set is at 3 months, then 6 months and then 1 year - this is the old regime used in the UK until it was found that it didn't always work so now in the uk it 2,3 & 4 months. I usually go home for vaccinations and dentist visits - in Italy everyone pays for the dentist, an extortionate rate and dubious service level. Until I had kids I thought Italy was the best place in the world, but now I'm not so sure, the healthcare and support is dubious, the schools and nurseries are behind the times and the level of schooling isn't great. I can't even go shopping to the supermarket because they don't have shopping trolleys for two small kids to sit in - I even considered asking Asda if they'd sell me one! Things are a bit better now we've got a childminder, she's german and thinks the same way as me - she takes the kids out to play everyday even in the winter, the Italian kids are usually locked inside and when they go out they've got five layers of clothing on. I've just signed up today for a course to open a small nursery in my house, I'm not really sure about it but thought I'd see what was involved - I'm convinced there's a market for an English speaking nursery around here. Sorry about this blathering, I'd better get back to doing some work! Take care
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Old Dec 12th 2006, 12:23 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

You will find any child born in any country to British citizen parents is automaticly a British citizen and can apply for a British passport, they can also apply for dual nationalty if they want.

My grand-daughter flew on Easyjet to Spain for a holiday when she was 5 weeks old
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Old Dec 12th 2006, 12:39 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

jdr is right, jet2 and ryan air now let you fly at 14 days and 8 days, only problem is getting a passport in time although you can fast track with the post office.
mine were born 2 years ago so things have changed a bit since then
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Old Jan 1st 2007, 4:01 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Originally Posted by jdr View Post
You will find any child born in any country to British citizen parents is automaticly a British citizen
Not true, actually.

At least one parent must be a British citizen otherwise than by descent. Normally this means the parent must be born or naturalised in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands or Isle of Man.

There are ways to get British citizenship for the non-UK born child if the parent is British by descent but these have restrictions and time limits.

The bottom line is that British citizenship does not normally pass down the generations successively born outside the United Kingdom.

they can also apply for dual nationalty if they want.
Not in most countries they can't. Most countries do not give citizenship to children of foreign parents born on their territory. Usually they insist that at least one parent is a citizen.

The ones that do give automatic citizenship to children of foreign parents are the USA, Canada, Brazil and some other Latin American and Caribbean nations.

In Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, it's necessary for foreign parents to be "permanent residents" for a child born in that country to be a citizen. British citizens are also automatically deemed "permanent residents" for nationality purposes in the Republic of Ireland.
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Old Jan 1st 2007, 4:21 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
Not true, actually.

At least one parent must be a British citizen otherwise than by descent. Normally this means the parent must be born or naturalised in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands or Isle of Man.

There are ways to get British citizenship for the non-UK born child if the parent is British by descent but these have restrictions and time limits.

The bottom line is that British citizenship does not normally pass down the generations successively born outside the United Kingdom.



Not in most countries they can't. Most countries do not give citizenship to children of foreign parents born on their territory. Usually they insist that at least one parent is a citizen.

The ones that do give automatic citizenship to children of foreign parents are the USA, Canada, Brazil and some other Latin American and Caribbean nations.

In Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, it's necessary for foreign parents to be "permanent residents" for a child born in that country to be a citizen. British citizens are also automatically deemed "permanent residents" for nationality purposes in the Republic of Ireland.
I was actually answering this as she is from Leeds Quote: "More importantly, if I'd given birth over here (Italy) then my kids wouldn't have had an automatic right to a british passport but would have had to reside in the country before requesting citizenship - this is what they told me at Leeds Council offices!" and as the child is living in Italy for a certain amount of time surely they can apply for Italian nationality also ?

Last edited by jdr; Jan 1st 2007 at 4:25 pm.
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Old Jan 1st 2007, 4:58 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Originally Posted by jdr View Post
I was actually answering this as she is from Leeds Quote: "More importantly, if I'd given birth over here (Italy) then my kids wouldn't have had an automatic right to a british passport but would have had to reside in the country before requesting citizenship - this is what they told me at Leeds Council offices!"
If she was born in the United Kingdom then Italy-born children will usually be British citizens. But the children would be British citizens by descent which could mean the next generation is not British, if they are also born outside the UK.

As for asking Leeds Council - it's unclear why they would know anything about British nationality law. Questions on British nationality law need to be directed to the Home Office Immigration & Nationality Directorate in Liverpool, and even they will often get it wrong, especially if it's complex and answered verbally.

Home Office leaflet BN4 gives a good explanation of current law, although it hasn't been updated to reflect the latest changes brought on on 1 July 2006 regarding unmarried British fathers.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/app...?view=Standard

also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law

and as the child is living in Italy for a certain amount of time surely they can apply for Italian nationality also ?
Once again - being born in Italy does not in itself give a right to Italian citizenship. Only if child cannot get another citizenship, or alternatively lives in Italy until adulthood.

Italian citizenship is normally passed by descent from an Italian parent, irrespective of place of birth.

If parents become Italian citizens then they could probably include the children in the application but that's a different question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law
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Old Jan 2nd 2007, 10:20 am
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

my twins have dual citizenship and I had no problems whatsoever. I'm British and my husband is Italian, the boys were born in the UK and therefore have British passports but as soon as we came home they were registered in Italy and also have Italian citizenship.
I spoke to the Leeds City Council office at the Births registry office and they gave me the advice.
Still don't understand all these rules and regulations so will go home for the next one as well.
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Old Jan 2nd 2007, 11:54 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Originally Posted by kathrynverona View Post
my twins have dual citizenship and I had no problems whatsoever. I'm British and my husband is Italian, the boys were born in the UK and therefore have British passports but as soon as we came home they were registered in Italy and also have Italian citizenship.
I spoke to the Leeds City Council office at the Births registry office and they gave me the advice.
Still don't understand all these rules and regulations so will go home for the next one as well.
If it's feasible for you to do that then it makes sense. At the very least, it means it will be easier for your grandchildren to be British too, if your children are born in the UK rather than Italy.

And as they have an Italian parent, Italy doesn't care where they are born.
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Old Jan 3rd 2007, 2:36 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Back to your original question regarding your permesso. Most people in this country have a tax advisor that takes care of all of your work/resident permits. It took me months to get my documents, had to que with all the illegal immigrants who were trying to get their documents (but failed). Just because we have an EU (Brit) passport doesn't mean its easier to get what you want. This country is terrible for getting anything done regarding permits etc.

Wayne
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Old Jan 6th 2007, 5:54 pm
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Default Re: Permesso di sioggiorno or not??!!

Agree on the queueing etc, a nightmare!! We have managed a carta d'Identita and medical cards and certificata di residenza and have bought a car WITHOUT a permesso di sioggiorno which I consider a real breakthrough!!! Apparently, the law changed at the beginning of November and you don't need one if British! By the time we are sorted, it will be time to go home again! Still, lovely ice-cream and no queues!!! (Supermarkets are another matter though...)
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