Donna Noble

On 17 August 2015 many countries in Europe, including Italy, changed the rules regarding succession. The UK opted out.

Basically, before that date your sucession was based on your nationality but since then your succession is determined by your last place of residence.

This prompted us (since we have property and a bank account in Italy) to sort out our wills. Mainly because my husband and I wanted to leave our house to each other without the possibility of Italian succession laws kicking in (ie the house goes to the kids with the one of us remaining getting the right to live there).

We did a regular UK will and an Italian holographic will which stated specifically that we wanted English Law (Scottish is different) to determine our succession, we made reference to the EU law too. We've given a copy of both wills to both a local solicitor here in Italy and our UK one also. We did a kind of cover letter with names and addresses because we figured both solicitors would have to work together on sorting it all out.

Italian solicitor didn't charge us for despositing the Will. UK solicitor charged usual fee for drawing up the will.

When the time comes, the holographic wills, written in English will have to be translated and legalised etc. And i suppose the UK one will have to been translated too and an apostile stuck on the back.

Just for the record, inheritance tax only has to be paid on estates worth over €1m here in Italy. In the UK it's £325k pp, with can be combined for married couples - and that will increase to £500k pp in 2020.

I have know idea how it would all be sorted out regarding managing the estate. I know that in Italy the heirs generally sort it all themselves, do the "Dichiarazione di Successione", close accounts, share the money, etc by themselves and they ALL have to sign it off. The concept of an Executor of a Will isn't so common here.

I wonder if the way we have done things will work. Sorry I wont be around when the time comes to share that info with you !!

It would be interesting to hear what steps others have taken.

37100

You did well to sort things out, as would everyone anywhere. Friends who deposited a will here were charged when the will was opened -well not them of course, the heirs.

JACHA

Donna- Great work. I read about this the other day and read an answer by a lawyer that explained it really well. I thought I was going mad when I posted the statement in another post.
Regards

JACHA

Hi this is the EU Directive 650/2012 . I found info on expatforums.cyprus 650/2012

37100

Sorry if it was me that confused you, Jacha. I knew about the EU law, but I thought you meant that there had been changes in Italian inheritance laws. I know dear Renzi is planning changes and I thought I had missed them.

JACHA

37100 - I felt really bad because I try and make posts that are accurate, So I will have the glass of wine now. lol
So do you mean the laws haven't actually changed. I din't realize that if something happened to us while we were residing in Italy that our wills could be affected. Doesn't matter much as it is all going to the gorillas and elephants.lol

37100

Renzi is attempting to lower/abolish the €1,000,000 limit for direct heirs before tax is due.

A side note for anyone who has a bank safety deposit box; you cannot just empty it on the death of someone. An AdE finance officer has to be present and you need to pay him.

mmmmbuti

Be aware that (art. 46 n. 2 legge 31 maggio 1995 n. 218) if any of your kids will be an Italian citizen resident in Italy at the moment of the your death or your husband's, he will still have the right to a share of your house in Italy regardless of any will. It's called quota legittima.

Donna Noble

That's a very interesting point.

I see that point 1 of art. 46 says that succession is determined by the nationality of the deceased, which we know is no longer the case after 17 August. So I wonder how much of that law is still applicable.

I was under the impression that if you specify in your will that you want your estate to be governed by your country of nationality then that overides any EU forced heirship laws (well at least if you chose English Law because that allows you to leave your stuff to whomever you wish).

So could it be true that even if a British National stipulates English law, if there are Italian 1st degree heirs they could force an heirship. Of Italian assets or worldwide assets?

I thought 650/2012 was supposed to make me feel better.

Fed up again.

Avv. Charlotte Oliver

Donna I think you explained the new Regulation very well.

And you are right that now the Regulation is in force, where there us any conflict with Italian law 218/1995 on succession, the Regulation prevails!

So the former rule that Italian heirs resident in Italy could previously override the deceased's wishes, will certainly no longer apply.

I think there are two points that British nationals should be aware of

- if they have an existing will in place made under the form in English law (ie signed in front of two witnesses), even if there is no express choice of national law made in the will, the Regulation says that this can actually be implied as a choice (this is in the transitional provisions).

Some people, for the avoidance of any doubt, are now making codicils to their existing wills stating that they are a British national and wish the law which is closest to them (ie the law of succession applicable in England and Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland) to apply. In this way English law can bet set in stone, ie the testator retains their freedom to leave their property to whom they wish on death.

- the rules of English law have always differentiated between immoveable (follows the law of the place property is situated) and moveable property (follows the law of the domicile).

This rule will still apply where a person dies intestate, and habitually resident in the UK, where English law would apply according to the Regulation.

By way of example, a British national resident in Southampton dies intestate leaving holiday homes in France and Italy and bank accounts in Jersey. The family left behind are a common law partner and two children from a previous marriage.

French law and Italian law will apply to the succession of each of the holiday homes, and as both countries have rules of forced heirship, the property will pass to the children only. English law will apply to the Jersey bank accounts as this is moveable property and follows the law of domicile.

The deceased could have left their property to their partner exclusively with legacies to their children, if they had made a will choosing English law.

Charlotte

modicasa

Thanks Charlotte

Donna Noble

Yes also thanks from me Charlotte for clarifying that issue.

It's always difficult trying to make sense of the law here and it's very nice when an expert takes the time to explain things in a clear way.

Your help is very much appreciated.

Donna

adri57

I'm resident in Italy and I have a property in the UK but I don't want my heirs to go through UK succession law/probate, so was wondering what to do. Would it be wise to make a will with an executor in the UK stating that, on my death, I wish my estate (including the UK property) to be subjected to Italian succession laws? Does that make sense?
When I inherited this property, it took 3 years of battling between 2 countries to decide where to pay inheritance taxes: the UK, where my father's property was, and France, where my father was a resident and had been a taxpayer for the last 30 years of his life. I wouldn't want my heirs to go through that. Has anyone had any experience of this? Thanks for your help!

Avv. Charlotte Oliver

Adri the Succession Regulation does not address inheritance tax..., only succession law which in essence governs all the ways in which an estate is passed to the heirs and who the heirs should be, whether certain family members have a right to challenge a will, the rules on intestacy etc.

Unfortunately there is no means of avoiding Probate or inheritance tax in the UK if there is a UK based property (if the value is over £325 k)!!

And you can only choose Italian succession law if you are an Italian national. If not, Italian law will apply automatically if you are still habitually resident there at the time of death.

JACHA

Charlotte What is meant by an Italian national. Is this someone who is born in Italy or has Italian citizenship or a resident.
Thanks