On a more serious note.
 

Have you every been racial abused? We have. Here and in the u.k. And it happened again the other evening. It leaves you totally speechless.
In the u.k it was usually directed at me because I have one fair and one very dark son( he could pass as Morrocan etc). I've been asked what colour my husband was, how could I sleep with a P**i etc.
Here in Verona it's usually directed at my sons. I Veronesi can be very narrow minded. My youngest was physically attacked by a group of youngsters because of his long fair hair. Their parents didn't seem at all 'disturbed' by their behavior. Not long after another boy was killed in the town centre for no reason. My son has now cut his hair and moved away. He is much happier, but it took him along time to get over it.
The other evening my eldest was subjected to a barrage of insults along the lines of the Italian equivalent of 'bloody foreigner, bugger of to you're own country' etc, though far stronger. Speechless, all he could stutter was "I'm Italian". At which his verbal aggressor started calling him "terrone di m.." just because he speaks Italian without a distinct regional accent. My son is a 28 yr old, 6ft judo instructor who although he managed to laugh it off, was still visibly shaken.

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I'm really sad to hear about this but not totally surprised. Italy really is far behind the rest of Western Europe in many ways but especially in terms of racial tolerance, integration and respect.
On a personal level, myself being from an ethnic minority, have never experienced any abuse here in Italy. I do, however, have concerns about my son being brought up amongst such narrow minded people of whom there are many in the Veneto area.

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Sorry to hear about your and your son's experiences and I agree with Duffer that Italy is totally behind in all racial aspects.

That translation I've just finished was all about counterfeit goods and it was a debate by Milan Uni students.

You'd expect better and more intelligent discussions from young students but I did come across a couple of sentences like "get the marocchini and the coloured people off the beeches and the streets."

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37100 I'm sorry for what has happened to you and your son. Trust me, not all Italians are racist. You see, there is a fact that I do not approve but I can see it. In Italy there are many problems, most of them linked to the shortness (I hope it is correct:confused:) of work. This forces lots of southern people (called "terroni" which comes from "terra" because they are more linked to it rather than northern people who faced industrialization times before) to move to illegality. The same thing, but even worse, happens to strangers coming from Africa and Eastern regions, helped by internal laws that allow anything to anybody. By this way, the perception of illegality is havier towards marocchini and albanians, instead of e.i. Senegal or other countries. I have to say it happens with Communities that have heavy numbers on our population, but I think Italians will need more more time to understand that we have to divide people in "good" and "bad" by what they do, not who they are. I feel really sorry about what happened to you but trust me, there are many people here happy to know you like a place like Italy to live in. And surely you know good people thinking that strangers can be an additional value to our Country.

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I'm very sorry to hear about what happened to your sons (and to you, in the UK). I haven't really experienced anything in the way of racial abuse here, but my husband has a bit- he's from Basilicata so has had a few "terrone" insults. I've mostly heard comments about "extracomunitari" and non-white people here. In my former job they came out with some breathtakingly non-pc comments, like referring to all the middle eastern clients as "Talibani". However, at our recent wedding the mayor made a lovely speech about the beauty of different cultures coming together, so it's not all bad.

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Compliments to your big lad for keeping his cool 37100 instead of decking the little %$&!ers with a few judo moves.

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Silvietta, I know not all italians are racist but you won't find many find many italians (at least round here) prepared speak out against it except to say 'but not all Italians are like that'. My youngest suffered serious, long term physical effects, but the parents of one boy in particular, just took the attitude 'that's adolescents for you'.Yes, in the u.k there is too much racism (there will always be a Nick Griffin), but the vast majority of people understand that it is totally unacceptable. BTW my OH is from Turin but is often ask here if he is a 'terrone'.

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You are just too shocked to do anything! My youngest fought back when he was attacked, but ended up with a 'denucia'. Apparently you are just supposed to stand there and take it though a police officer did quietly say 'bravo'.

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This is a terrible thing to happen - and in his home town too. I have very fair children and I am half Indian and get all the comments about whether they are mine or not. Which I don't mind as they don't look like me. We did have Calabrian neighbours who were very worried about whether my dad was a muslim or not. But I have no direct experience of being racially abused here. The eastern europeans have a lot of problems with the locals but its isn't really in my radar.

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Sadly, I have now lost count of the times it has happened more here, than the u.k. but it still leaves me without words. In the u.k I was often asked if my eldest was mine. His is very olive skinned. I can still remember the exact spot I was standing the first time I was asked what colour my oh was. TBH, it was a bit of an eye opener. Verona isn't my sons' home town although my youngest does speak the local dialect.

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After more than 15yrs here in Veneto I can completely understand your concerns however, it has made my sons far more open to to people with differences be them physical or mental. My youngest never , ever thought to tell me one of his class mates didn't have fingers or toes. To him it was just a different way of being 'normal' and it was the same for his few immigrant class mates.

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Oh 37100 I am so sorry to read this. I must admit that on this scale we've had nothing like it, but there are narrow minded people here, who have made loud comments about us not paying our taxes here and therefore not really being entitled to school our kids here or even use the parks but this is mostly narrow-minded small individuals imho. Becuase I am not classic English rose material (as you know ;)) I often get asked if I'm romanian and when I say 'no, english' most people visibly chill out and are nicer, but not all. Things have got worse in the last year with the recession and the italians seem to think they are the only people going through this. At our language school there are lots of romanians and I do think they get a really hard time here. They are very guarded and dont like us much really at all, but I guess they are right in that not all europeans are treated equal.

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I used to live in Shepherds bush and could buy a turkey from a halal butcher on christmas day. Every other day I could go to a 24 hour shop, typically managed by, a non-native-english person (whatever the PC alternative for that is) and I loved it. I'd go to the market and you could buy anything from anywhere on earth.

In itally, the only non-europeans that I observe, sell stuff on the beach or clean your windscreen. I saw a black family on holiday at the beach and I hadn't previously noticed how strange it was to see. I don't think I've ever seen a black politician or police officer or anything!

We send our son to an international school and it is a mixture of all races and I'm glad that he will grow up to hardly even notice the race of his friends, but it is certainly an exception. I don't know why that is in Italy.

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I am so sorry about your son and it makes me angry..

But we are foreigner in another country and Un-like the UK that bend over backwards to foreigner Italians are at least 20 years behined and are still rascist.

I am affraid that it is something that we will have to live with, as foreigner did in the UK when they first arrived.

We have been lucky that in Cesena our son has not had any thing like this (some but not like your boys) I did tell him If they start just smack um in the mouth and I will come to the school. I know it's not the right way But they need to know where he stands.

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Personally I haven't had in my family any of this issue, though we have:
-my uncle coming from England :thumbup:
-my granmother coming from Brazil (her father went there during 1st world war):thumbsup:
-my husband's uncle married with a Kenian woman with whom he had a beatiful child and met her first daughter (she had in a previous relationship) with no trouble.Of course, you'd smile if you'd seen them: him completely white as a ghost/ she completely black as the night / the child a lovely cappuccino color / the daughter completely black (the mother had a relationship with a Watoussi man - black and really tall - the girl is thin and tall 1,70m at 14 years old!) but this is really nice.Of course somebody could ask about this difference, but no problem to say the truth - they are all good people and curiosity is lawful, it is not a prejudice.
My family was lucky to have found always smart people around with no prejudice. My uncle has lived in Italy since 1970 and was always perfectly accepted by all (even if still he has troubles with italian language!).
I guess the first thing to avoid racism is not to think you are different from Italians. If you priorly act like victims, you will always find stupid people treating you bad. I work with many strangers in my Company, no problem. Some of them are stupid, some are not. It depends upon the situation they are coming from, we have 3 brothers coming from Albania. 1 of them should be trashed, the other 2 are really nice people. And it is in the same family.Don't make yourself the error to think all Italians are racist, you are making the first step in the wrong way.Just give Italians the time to know you, then you can say if they behave fine or not. I'm sure you will change your ideas...:thumbup:

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Good points indeed however you only get one chance to make a first impression. If you're put off someone by their racist behaviour you're hardly likely to want to get to know them better. How much time do you need to give to the thug that insults your son in the street?

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Hmmmmm the problem is, what we call in England, institutionalised racism. The society in general here is often not very welcoming. In the UK, the local councils all produce much info in countless different languages to accomodate the different nationalities that we have in the Uk. They have made huge strides in the last 20-30years to address these issues. I've never seen that here. We were told by countless people when we moved that 'they didn't speak English and they didn't want to.' which is fair enough but did they really need to voice it when we were making an effort to speak Italian? The teachers cannot manage difference as it means more work and my son gets blamed for the poor behaviour of the other kids in the class whereas I know there were problems with the control of the class before my son arrived in the class. Also in geography this year the text book they have has talked about the population of italy and if you read it it concentrates on the idea of italy filling up with people from eastern europe and north africa and bringing with them many social problems and changing the italian way of life. In the UK we were taught that the UK was made up of many different nationalities of people that bring interest and diversity to our country and generally enrich our culture, not destroy it. It is an insidious racism, not something that comes about only in individuals but which is based on assumptions and fear of difference and it will be a slow process to solve.

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Surely Italy is not completely ready yet to welcome strangers who come here to stay and live in. I guess Italians always consider strangers in two different types: the ones that come here which are "richer" than us and come from North/Western Europe only for vacation (so there is no need to improve structures and facilities as they would leave after few weeks); the second ones which are "poorer" than us coming from Eastern Europe and North Africa for which I've personally seen lots of improvement starting from the TownHall in which there is indication about our HEAVY burocracy in 3 different languages (romanian, albanian and arabo). I've already explained that Italians have real big difficulties in learning other languages, especially English, and they prefer to say "I don't want to" rather than admitting "I cannot". I think British are still a small community here in Italy, this is the reason why the State isn't facing the problem of integration for you. It is priorly working on other communities to help them out from very deep bad situation (begging/starving/prostitution) that may generate more troubles to our (feeble) system.

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Silvietta, I hope you don't think we are being critical towards you in the slightest and I do think that you are right Italy are beginning to accept the challenges of people coming in from abroad and there are, of course, pluses and minuses and, believe me the UK is far from perfect on this! Also, as someone else said, the italians may have trouble with other languages but the Brits have to be the worlds worst. What do we do? Go to other places, and make them speak our language. Any lingo difficulties you may have when travelling abroad are either ignored or minimised in the UK media. We do believe that the rest of the world speaks english or wants to... not a very nice approach sometimes and I do cringe in touristy places to hear the way British and American tourists speak to the italians in very loud English and then complain that the italians trying there best to help them are stupid in some way for not speaking perfect English. A horrible attitude really when you think about it and not something we personally want to be associated with. We did come here with very little knowledge of the lingo but the kids speak fluently now and mine is getting better, although I realise it will never be perfect.... I think a little bit of effort goes a long way...(well I hope so!! :o)

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I used to feel bad about my lack of language skills. I know that if the worst comes to worst someone will always be found who speaks English. However, where we are in Italy there a lot of non-italians and they also rely on finding someone who speaks English. If the rest of the world are comfortable with English being such a global language then, now, so am I.

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Silvietta, my post wasn't just about race discrimination but more about discrimination in generally seen through British eyes. My youngest wasn't attacked for being British, but for living in a right wing town with a left wing 'look'. It wasn't until someone was killed that the authorities sat up and took notice. The 'it's never happened to me attitude' is why I, at least, feel Italy cannot move forward. It has happened to you if you've heard someone called terroni etc. And the 'it's just kids being kids' attitude makes me:angry_smile: It's not acceptable at any age. Kids grow into adults with THAT attitude.

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Very sorry to hear that your sons and yourself have been treated so despicably, racism goes on everywhere, London, here, everywhere. I was waiting for a driving lesson the other day and a young Romanian walked in and asked if he could enrol as another driving school in the town had turned him away saying "we don't teach bastardi like you". He was told he was welcome and to not think he would ever be treated badly by this particular school. My sons are half English and half Italian, they have never really been racially abused either here or in England thankfully, (except the youngest being called a wog when he worked in Australia), all three have said that to the english they are considered italians and the italians think of them as english. Because of their upbringing in a multicultural place like London none of my sons has racist attitudes, I have to agree that on the whole Italy is about 20/30 years behind the UK on this topic.

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Do you know I was thinking earlier about growing up in Brighton and going out clubbing and stuff and as a group of girls we rarely had problems and we could stick up for ourselves if anyone got a bit creepy etc, but I had a real eye opener once going out with my friend and her boyfriend and a big group of lads. Firstly they had to split up in order to get into nightclubs and then coming out at 2 or 3 in the morning I once witnessed a group of blokes literally jump on my friends boyfriend and beat the c**p out of him just because he had a shaved head. My friend went to pieces but I must admit that I was so incensed that I waded in and made loads of noise and punched a couple of blokes and pulled them off and, luckily for me the police arrived. Telling this to dh at the time (we were 18 and 19) first he had a go at me for wading in and secondly he said it wasn't that unusual.... so I wonder if this is sometimes more about being a young man rather than being a girl. I hardly ever witnessed violence between girls or not to the same violence and extent.

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Indie I think what you are saying is close to the truth. I remember as a teen in the 80's mods and rockers fighting and causing trouble in Manchester, plus different gangs where I lived would chase after my OH when he was a teen fo daring to walk past on their turf.

Now lads in any European country seem to feel validated in bashing or taunting any lad that is different to them. Think about it, Whites attack Asians and Blacks in the UK and vice versa. Rusholme in manchester has a big Asian community - the running battles on a Saturday between Hindus and Muslim lads were well known!

It's no surprise really when normally sane people tell me they are petrified on the tube when an Asian with a backpack gets on...

I think here people are less hypocritical in a way - at least they let you know they dislike or are scared of your differences! Btw as a redhaired, glasses wearing kid with a London accent in Manchester I have had my share of prejuidice and bullying!

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Am so sad to read this 37100 - what a horrid feeling it must have given you.
I suppose i was lucky cos I grew up in a tiny island and we didnt have any immigration as such. But it still doesnt make it right to treat people the way your sons have been treated - I agree with other comments that Italy seems to be a good 20/30 years behind the UK.
When we first arrived here my son had an episode of bullying at school and was teased as 'eeenglish' - whether it was racism or just stupid teenagers I dont know - but I know that my heart was breaking for him .

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I assume that there is a basic reason from which Italy is so far from real strangers' integration. I guess it comes all from our history. As a Land which was conquered many times (Fenician,Arabian,French,Austrian,American...), I am deeply convinced that any stranger which is coming here is seen as in the past, just like a conquerer. It might sound silly, but Italians are aware that we've never been a strong State which protected itself in good way, always depending upon the others. By this way, when we see a huge immigration (the scaring one, the Albanians) we immediately think: everything will change towards them. And this doesn't happen, but the perception is this one. It's wrong, I know this. Personally I think we will need more time to "trust" strangers as friends, we have always this habits to think that what you see, is not what it is. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we're not.
PS: I saw yesterday on La7 a news talking about 40.000 racist abuses in the primary school in UK...:unsure:

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Hmmmm The UK was attacked by many invaders too. It is why our language has such a mix of influences upon it, but then we've been a single unit for longer I suppose. We've already said that the UK is nowhere near perfect and there are ignorant, uneducated people everywhere. The immigration here is nothing on what the UK has tbh. In some parts of London and other big cities the mother tongue english speakers are actually in the minority. However, as a people we kinda like a bit of diversity and it is what has made Britain what it is today. There are always scared people though.

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I think that each population has its own history, which affects behaviour. You cannot say Italians and British have same thoughts and same habits, we are different but this doesn't interdict a good cooperation. We both need to open a bit to others' mind and try to understand the reason of bad behaviour. Surely no Italian would like to hear that you think to be "up" a step despite us, it means you have created yourselves a wall around you (and we feel it) which we cannot come across, and it divides people more than any other thing. Just to go deep into, I guess that racism is all over the world in the same quantity (it comes from a natural defence such suspicion, but soon it generates in unfair unjustice) , the only difference is that sometimes is clearly shown, sometimes it is hidden. If you don't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...unfortunately, Italians cannot shut up and lie, we always say what we think, good or bad.Sometimes, too bad. This condition is common in Italy, not only against strangers. I come from Milan but trust me when I went to Sicily, they were looking at me as if I was coming from Mars...:rolleyes:

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Sorry but I think that's rubbish.
Most, if not all of the British people that have moved to Italy have moved here with humble dignity quite prepared to learn the language, adopt the customs, struggle to understand the bureacracy, be regarded as a foreigner and learn to fit in. They are here to live the Italian way of life and not behave as superiors.

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It will be hard for you to understand our behaviour and get used to. It is hard for us.

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Silvia - I have been here for 19 years. My partner is Italian and I have two children born here.

I do not live an expat life here.

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See that's what I was afraid you would think Silvietta. We meant no offence and Lorna is right, we do try hard to fit in. Also, I think it is a load of rubbish to say italians say what they think and we don't. Where I am in Piedmonte the people are extremely closed. They don't say what they think. The way they say polite things sometimes lets me know in no uncertain terms what they think though... but if you try and challenge them then they are the ones who get offended as the content of what they said was polite but they said it in a sarcastic way.... most of my italian friends here are from the south of italy. They certainly know what it was like here to feel like the outsider.

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There is a big difference between racism and closure. Closure I have it with my neighbour, I don't know her, I don't even want or need to know her.She behaves in a good way, for me it is enough for a basic good relation. No need to share moments together, no need to be friends. Racism is when I accuse you and treat you bad without any reason. You cannot blame Italians for being closed, all the world is closed. It is suspicion, not racism. We are distrust each other, even if we are Italians. I'm sure all Italians that meet you are suspicious, not racist. It's just a natural distrust. You'd be treated differently if you were Romanian or Albanian, trust me.

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yes which is what I think we said earlier in this thread if you have a look back.

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Institutionalised racism?:ohmy:

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Silvietta, in your first post you said that you would like to see how British people see Italy from their point of view.

Not all of our points of view are good ones and that's the truth.

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yes. in answer to one of your posts i think trying to excuse the behaviour of the italians if I remember rightly. I was trying to give you a reason why it is as it is. It was not meant as a criticism or trying to say that the Brits are any better than the Italians, but this is something that we are very aware of in the UK and something the authorities and society in general are trying to address. That doesnt always look to be the case here. It isn't a simple problem and it isn't clear cut and as 37100 said it wasn't really about race, it was just about her son being seen as different and attacked for those differences and then as I pointed out I know of this in the UK too especially between young men in groups. Not something we may have experienced as young women. That was it. Noone was trying to offend and what Lorna says is right. This is our point of view. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It is just as it is.

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Lorna, as I started this thread can I ask you to close it? I feel it is going down a slippery path and this was NEVER my intention.

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Sure, no problem. Thread now closed.