DeanP

Firstly I'd like to say hi all as this is my first post and apologise if I do anything incorrectly when posting! I'm sure I'll get used to it!

I'll be moving to Siena with work in February and I'm trying to budget my monthly outgoings to get an idea of property and rent that I can afford based on my salary. I have found a lot of information on here regarding cost of living, food and fuel etc but was wondering if anybody could help with the following:

- Property taxes or rates
- Utility bills such as gas, electricity and water
- Insurance for contents (don't know if you needs buildings insurance also or if that is the landlords responsibility)
- Telephone line rental
- Broadband fees
- TV licening or subscription fees

We have a couple of properties shortlisted for viewing in January that are 2 or 3 bed apartments. If anybody could provide approximate monthly costs for the above based upon this type of property that would be much aapreciated as it would give us a better understanding of what we require.

Thanks

Sancho

Plus, possibly, spese condominiali, which can be heavy. Apart from that, I'm afraid I can't say much useful. At a guess, property tax (ICI) maybe about €50 a month, depending on square metres, etc, insurance maybe about €15 a month, telephone + broadband about €50 a month (assuming you get them together and make some sort of arrangement - teleconomy ? Jajah ? Skpe ? - for calls abroad), TV license I don't know because I haven't got a TV, utilities perhaps €150 a month, but it varies a lot from area to area. All this could be wildly wrong, though. Try asking neighbours if you can.

P.S. If you're renting, I think the ICI will be the owner's responsibility - i.e. you won't have to pay it at all. Bins, yes. I've counted them in with utilities.

DeanP

Sancho,

Thanks for replying it is much appreciated. What is spese condominiali? I've not come across that before in any research that I have done.

I'm a little more reasurred regarding the utility costs based upon the information that you have shared as I have come across some horror stories on hear with people claiming their gas has cost them approximately 1000 euros a month!

I checked with a estate agency this morning and they confirmed your view that ICI will be the owners responsibility.

chris120

depending on how you use the heating, how many people, young babies, the latitude, the altitude etc. you could easily spend €1,000 in a winter month on gas but this would not be the monthly year round average. to be honest there are so many variables the best advise i could give is to budget for around double what you would spend in the UK - all else being equal (ie same size house, same number of people etc) in my experience you won't be far wrong on the overall costs.

TestaRossa

DeanP - welcome to the forum!!

If you are looking at an apartment then you may also find that some heating is included in the Condominiale fee - this is the amount you pay for the cleaning, maintenance etc. of all the public spaces in your building - if it operates like this. Some also have heating which covers the whole building - it means you have no control over when it goes on or off but you will pay a much lower amount to heat your place than if you are on your own boiler - so it goes both ways. A two or three bedroom apartment isn't going to be on the cheap side to heat if you are on a separate boiler - I'd budget more than €150 tbh. I am in a detached house with 3 bedrooms and I am one of the horror stories for definite. Winter is easily 300 - 500/month for gas alone....and that's not being extravagant and supplementing with a fire and heaters. So you could possibly halve my gas bill which would still be around €150 at the bottom end just for gas...Don't think these are urban myths - gas is very expensive here and will be your biggest expenditure after your rent. Electricity is around UK levels I would say and water possibly a little less.

There are so many phone plans available but your best start point would be telecomm Italia's webpage, then look at Vodafone italia, Fastweb etc. If you need teleconomy Internazionale though from Telecomm you will need a land line to use it - you can't just use voip. This service allows you to call any international landline for as long as you like as often as you like for €10/month and reduced costs to international cell numbers.

Yes building insurance is the owners responsibility as is ICI. Check any policy you take out very carefully to make sure you get what you need.

As someone has mentioned you will also get billed for refuse collection. In the towns this is done everyday rather than weekly like the UK so you do get value for money!!

Any other questions just ask! Btw, don't worry about making any mistakes - it's next to impossible on here and we'll let you know pretty quickly anyway!!

modicasa

If you are in a building which has more than two apartments on the same staircase, it will be a condominio and you will have to pay your share of comunal space cleaning and lighting (and perhaps heating) - this should be itemised on your rental contract if you pay it to the landlord, or at least told to you if you pay it informally to the condominio.
ICI remains at the landlords expense and is included in your rent, but the TARSU -the rubbish collection tax is yours. You will have to register for it, adn de register when you move or you will continue to be sent bills.
Utilities are difficult to gauge -
TV licence is 110 euros or thereabout per year, payable in January or in 4 staged payments.
You may have fibre optic Fastweb in Siena which is worth the extra money as you get 100Mb/s

Pecora Nera

To be honest I think the gas men over here just pick a figure double take of nine then treble it. I tried working out the list of different amounts on the back of the bill and gave up in the end. Last January we had a gas bill of 600 euros for the month but normally it is around 200 in the winter. The houses seem cold in the winter without carpets, so bring lots of jumpers or do what we did and install a small wood burning fire. Cheap and warm.

TestaRossa

Alot of people, including me, get caught out by the conguaglio - when they actually deign to come out and read the meter, discover they've underbilled you for two years and send a catch up bill of €1200!!! So another piece of advice - when you get your bill always ring in the actual meter reading so they send you the correct amount even if it is slightly more, better than having to pay for it later in one go!!

Sancho

Hi again,

Speaking in simple terms, a "condominio" consists of the owners and tenants of flats/garages etc in the same building, and the spese condominiali are the expenses involved in managing what they have to pay for as a body, rather than as individuals. That means the garden if there is one, the lift if there is one, cleaning, lighting and perhaps heating the entrance hall, the stairs, etc, probably RC (= third party) insurance, and paying an amministratore of the condominio, who works out who pays how much, sends letters inviting members of the condominio (or Signori Condomini) to a meeting (assemblea). There are reams and reams of laws laying down how the expenses are to be split up (according to how many thousandths - millesimi - of the building each member - condomino - owns, what floor a flat's on (for a lift and lighting the stairs), when an assemblea is to be called, and what is needed (two thirds of the millesimi ? a majority of the condomini ? both ?) for the regularly constituted assemblea to reach an decision) and so on. A few people are experts. Most, like me, don't understand. Anyway, so far as you're concerned, the important thing is just about how much you'll be paying, and to find that out all you can do is ask, or ask someone to ask for you.

(If there are no more than - I think - six flats in the building, the condomini can agree that one of them will do the calculations, arrange meetings, etc. No outside amministratore is required. Which considering how much outside amministratori charge and they way they have to do everything by the law makes a huge saving.)

The other thing is that I see various people here have been talking about gas bills. Partly, I think it's because we've just been through the first really cold patch of the winter, and it's on people's minds. And partly it's because gas bills for the winter months seem dramatically high (esp if you turn it up high and leave it on all the time) compared to summer, when you probably only use gas for cooking and heating water. I get more of a shock with the bin- and water-bills.

P.S. For what it's worth, I - and every Italian I know agrees - think it's far better for a flat to have its own heating - riscaldamento autonomo - than for it to be heated from a central boiler or whatever. Condomino meetings are fraught enough as it is without talking about people who have their heating at 25 degrees all day and all night, whether they're in or out, and others having to pay for it .

TestaRossa

No, I think you will find we are talking about gas bills because they are the most expensive of the utilities for most people. Last year, forget this one, I kept my thermostat set at 21c and supplemented with electric heaters and my open fire. My bills for the winter period (Jan - April) were approx. €3K....I have a friend who pays through condominio, her flat is 3 beds and always warm, she pays around €40/month....So there are two sides to the argument.

If you are the kind of person that can live in a coldish house and wear lots of sweaters or if you are lucky enough to have heat coming up from someone elses apartment then you probably don't spend as much as others, but the majority of people - on here - do have high gas bills, so to let someone think they won't I think is unfair. If they do move into a place and are lucky, like my friend, to pay no more than €40/month all year around, fantastic, but better they go into it thinking it will be more like €150 - €300.

Isakat

The gas bills in Italy are high. In the summer we pay around 60/80 E for a semester, for cooking and hot water only, while in winter it can go to 500 for only a few hours heat in the morning and evening.
Using the termocamino and very occassionaly the gas, has brought our bill to 100 e. per two months.
Electricity is another high bill-300 E every 2 months

I also mark on the calendar the 3 days when you can take the reading and phone the gas company, so that they do not overcharge me.
This is obviously only for direct gas supply; if you have to fill in a reservoar, then you pay more.

37100

Well I for one, after living in a variety of apartments do NOT like individual heating in flats. In theory, it should save money, but if, like us, you have neighbours who do not turn their system on, you will always be cold. And when you go away, you can turn the heating off and freeze when you get back or you can leave it on, but you need to leave your keys with someone in case of leaks etc. Also, in this flat, we the heating supplied by the town's company (teleriscaldamento), one heating system for hundreds of buildings. It works out the same price as our friends with individual heating, but we are cosy, their flats are always cold and they go to bed dressed as Michelin men. Of course, this refers to Northern Italy where it is as cold, if not colder than southern England and it helps that we all get along with each other. (usually). Might be different further south where less heating is needed. BTW heating is regulated by laws. Here we turn on from 15th Oct until 15th April for a max of 12hrs a day and 20°. In the near future all radiators will have to have termostats to set at max of 20°. At the moment only newer builds have them.
As for bills. I'd add all your present out goings togethr except for heating and double it. Heating - triple. Again, the heating bill apllies to N. Italy.