37100

True, but in the late 80's/early 90's this term was used as a derogative for coloured immigrants. Making it rude and racist to use even if it is the correct terminology.

ononno

I cannot think of any phrase more racist or derogatory than the words in the official text quoted : ad essi e' applicato un trattamento giuridico differente etc...
sounds a bit like the infamous anti Jewish laws of the '30s.
Coming back to bricwoods moans. Well, I've just spent a week near the cold and wet Costa del Sol. Apart from keeping up with my Spanish, I've also for the first time for a long time actually conversed in English with like-minded people, and really enjoyed it. A 50's disco night with the ex pats social club, a full roast beef/yorkshire pudding Sunday lunch for combined UK Mother's day/Italy & Spain Father's day. Absolute heaven shopping for Cadbury's chocolate in a Iceland supermarket can you believe! And a lot of fun and good food with Spanish friends too. Don't knock the UK and the British bricwood. You never know when you might decide to return there.
ciao for now
'o nonno

Anderson Council

I was (I thought, very clearly) talking about how the term is used, not any dictionary definition. In theory it simply means "from outside the EU" as we both know. In practise I find it is applied to black people from within the EU but not white people from outside the EU, and as such is used in a discriminatory way, both in itself and as a way of justifying a wider context of discrimination.

Mr Posh

Do not want to get into a racist argument: but have you ever wondered why there "seems" to be less foreigners in Italy then the UK.

Could it be that they do not cave in to every whim, or are not politically correct (who came up with that anyway?)

I have never once thought calling someone Extracomunitari racist. to me it is someone outside EU for example people from Switzerland they are extraeuropeo (is that racist or just saying that they are not in the EU Community ad esempio, sia un cittadino svizzero (dal momento che la Svizzera non è uno degli Stati membri dell'Unione europea), sia anche ogni cittadino extraeuropeo

I just think that people go over the top.....We live here and take the PISS out the ITALIANS on this forum and OH thats OK because they are white and we are just having a laugh...BUT GOD FORBID writing Extracomunitari because they are black...NOW THAT'S RACIST...

I wonder when the Italians went abroad they where called WOP, ITIE, DAGO, etc etc never heard them whinging or moaning..Just get on with it I say and get a job or Go home....

Anderson Council

"have you ever wondered why there "seems" to be less foreigners in Italy then the UK.
Could it be that they do not cave in to every whim, or are not politically correct"

I can't really comment on the UK as I've hardly spent any time there for decades. However, if there are more forigners there than here because they are treated better then I would think that's something Italy should aim towards. Legal and law abiding immigrants should have the same rights as the indigeneous population in a civilised society.

"I have never once thought calling someone Extracomunitari racist. to me it is someone outside EU for example people from Switzerland they are extraeuropeo (is that racist or just saying that they are not in the EU Community [I]ad esempio, sia un cittadino svizzero (dal momento che la Svizzera non è uno degli Stati membri dell'Unione europea), sia anche ogni cittadino extraeuropeo"

Therein lies my point. I can't imagine an Italian, or the Italian media, referring to anyone from Switzerland as 'extracomunitari' or accepting that they should be treated worse than native Italians.

"I just think that people go over the top.....We live here and take the PISS out the ITALIANS on this forum and OH thats OK because they are white and we are just having a laugh...BUT GOD FORBID writing Extracomunitari because they are black...NOW THAT'S RACIST..."

I think that there is a difference between 'taking the piss' and racism. (For example, I personally don't like the way ginger-haired people are the constant butt of jokes in UK media, but I think that's a long way from denying them equality on the basis of their hair colour). "Writing extracomunitari" is not the issue; allowing (for example) the police to stop and search people based on their skin colour is simply wrong.

"I wonder when the Italians went abroad they where called WOP, ITIE, DAGO, etc etc never heard them whinging or moaning..Just get on with it I say and get a job or Go home...."

I can't agree with you I'm afraid. I think it's far better that they are no longer reffered to as "WOP, ITIE, DAGO". Again, I feel that eradicating the common acceptability of such terms was a positive step towards a more civilised society. (And as for "never heard them whinging or moaning", well I don't know about that; but I do know that the Italian immigrants to America set up self-protective 'family' based organised crime syndicates, based on the Italian mafia, partly as a response to the discrimination they incurred there.)

Lorna at Vicenza

Possibly because they can't scam the benefits system here because there are little or no benefits to be had.

Of course not all of them in the UK are profiting wrongly from the benefits but plenty are.

Racist? Discriminatory? Don't care - it's a fact.

37100

Less foreigners in Italian is more due to lack of work and no benefits system than to not caving in to political whims.

I, for one along with most poster do not take the piss out of Italians.

Extracomunitari IS racist in the same way as saying black. There are many seemingly innocuous English words with double meanings too that foreigners fail to understand.

And Italians did moan about being classed as Wops etc. Yes, they got on with their jobs and didn't go home because their home country was underdeveloped, just like Africans today.

I never thought for a minute that you were being intentionally racist.

Pecora Nera

I agree with the above. I do not think it is possible to ask for a council house, a grant to furnish it and money to live on indefinitely.

One of my wife's nephews was made redundant at the end of last summer. His benefit has now run it's course and has now been terminated. He now has 3 options. Find a job, starve or ask his extended family to support him. The unemployment benefit here is quiet high but it is only for a short time.

Anderson Council

I agree. I don't think it's a race issue though. If the UK offers state benefits to foreigners then the same benefits should be available to UK citizens in the respective foreigners' country. Otherwise it's grossly unfair.
The travel agency Easy London used to (and maybe still do) offer Italians a package that included getting them signed on for UK dole!!!
And any benefit system that pays out more than the average worker can earn (up to £30,000 rent allowance, ffs!) is insane.
However, I don't think immigrants are to blame for any of this. Nor are they the only ones to profit from it.

Wiffy

I disagree. IMO it may be prejudiced but not racist. My experience here is that it is equally applied to Blacks, Asians and Eastern Europeans. I have no problem with it. It's similar to the US reference of non-nationals as aliens!

I also have no problem with someone calling me black - I don't find it racist in the least, tons better than coloured (as if we don't all have a colour!!). Having said that - it always depends on the context!

37100

Extracomunitario:

http://www.italica.rai.it/principali...hede/extra.htm

Lorna at Vicenza

In a school lesson I asked all the students to write out a description of themselves.
Many of them had written "I am a person of colour." Now I know that they had translated from "di colore" and I told them to say "black".
They didn't like it as they said they would never use "nero" in Italian.
I told them that as far as I'm aware "coloured" might once have been considered to be more polite than "black" but that "black" is now the preferred word. I hope I wasn't wrong.

And I still don't see why anyone needs to be extracomunitario when EU and Non EU works perfectly well. In fact if we have to use comunitario then why the "extra" in extracomunitario. Why not Comunitario and Non Comunitario.

Extra makes them sound superfluous.

Anderson Council

That's an excellent article, 37100. Thanks for posting it.

ononno

Yes, thanks from me too. Reinforces my dislike of the term.
ciao for now,
'o nonno

Wiffy

Reinforces my view that it is more about prejudice than race. Funnily enough, I don't remember it being on the census form... or was it?

I can't say that you were, although you will find people who dislike being referred to as black. They would rather Afro-().

I do know (and as your students said) that to refer to someone as black in Italian seems taboo. Not sure why.