campos

To avoid a passport stamp when Leaving Italy for UK on a British passport does one need a QR code on a new biometric residency card or simply to show a pre-Brexit (permanent) residency document?

Lorna at Vicenza

The new carta di soggiorno for Brits is not obligatory (although many Italians already think it is) so passport control should accept the paper permanent residence certificate from the comune. Don't bloody lose it though. You might need it more to get back in rather than leaving.

modicasa

I thought they stamped you entering and leaving the Uk not Italy. If they stamp you leaving italy, thats a real pain..

C.2s

There are no stamps for UK passports when you enter/leave the UK.

Any stamping of UK passports takes place when you enter/leave the EU and is done by EU country officials.

It obviously varies depending on where you are and who is actually checking your passport, but basically the border staff don't know what they are doing.

In my experience nobody has shown any interest in stamping my passport with an exit stamp on the two occasions when I exited the EU (from the Netherlands by ferry and from Pisa by plane).

When entering the EU from Dover by ferry my wife's passport was stamped at Dover. I said "You shouldn't have stamped her passport, we are resident in Italy. So please don't stamp mine" and the guy replied "Oh right. Sorry.", gave my wife back her passport (with the stamp) and did not stamp mine. I didn't show him any documents (apart from my passport of course).

When returning by plane to Pisa two weeks ago I got in the lane for EU residents and showed my Italian ID card and UK passport. My ID is the old plastic credit card type with a photo, but not the newer biometric CdS card. I did have my letter from the comune with me, but didn't offer to show it to anyone. That was fine. No Stamp.

So, I asked the guard if using my ID card was okay because I wanted to understand what I would need to show on future trips. He asked why I was worried, and I said about people having their passports stamped...he said "Would you like me to stamp yours?" - I said "No" :-)

Nobody has ever said anything about a QR code.

Also, it doesn't matter if you are a permanent or temporary resident. The rules apply in the same way in this case

campos

So today I flew Ryan BLQ to MANchester.
The passport control at Bologna just glanced at my passport and didn't look at my residency docs.
Ryanair boarding queue lady wanted go see ukPlf, vac cert and boarding pass. I had all mine lined up but some were faffing around finding them on phones.
At Man there were random spot checks for plfs but otherwise just scanned passport and home and dry.
return next week will be reported on too.

modicasa

thanks for those - at least I know what to expect on MOnday....

jiminalpago

Your Bologna (?) experience is like mine at Europort in August. P&O's explanation was that they had been fined by the UK authorities for carrying passengers to UK without complete paperwork the previous day.
It has always been Ryanair policy to put the onus for ensuring that all passengers meet regulations on the local authority running the airport, on pain of Ryanair withdrawing their business.

campos

My experiences from Italy to the UK and back - The focus is on the passport/residency situation but I've included the other checks on dPLFs and vac certs.

(Posted above): I flew Ryanair from Bologna to Manchester. Went through passport control and the guy just glanced at my (UK) passport. I had my residency docs to show him if required . At the gate as passengers were queuing an official went down the line asking to see UK PLF, vaccination cert./test cert. At gate just boarding pass and passport check, as usual.
Arrival in UK just passport scan and spot checks were being done for PLF and 2 day test booking. The latter is required in order to complete the pre-arrival PLF anyway.

Return from Manchester to Bergamo with Ryanair, 10 November.
At the departure gate only the boarding pass and passport shown.
At arrival in Bergamo, there was a pre-passport queue for checks of vaccination cert/c19 test, PLF, and my 48hour pre-flight antigen swab (done remotely and unsupervised). I had all of the above on my smartphone and just scrolled through them quickly and the inspector waved me through without any close inspection.
Next was the digital automated passport scan followed by the passport guard. As I am resident in Italy it was important that my passport wasn't stamped. I presented my passport and held up my residency certificate and said that I am resident. He just waved me through without bothering to inspect my certificate.

heritagestanley

When we entered France recently we had our passports wrongly stamped by a grumpy border guard, in spite of showing him our biometric carta di soggiorno. We're going back to the UK shortly, and I'm wondering whether it's better, when we get to Calais, to have our passports stamped again to show exit from the Schengen zone or to show our residence cards and ask for our passports not to be stamped. Perhaps it doesn't make any difference in practice; but I'd be interested to know what others think

jiminalpago

I would say that passport stamping makes no difference to someone with a demonstrable right to be permanently within the Schengen area.

Solarcower

Won't it affect your ability to visit another European country? If you have 'used up' your 90 day allowance in Italy, (even though you are resident) trying to prove it was a mistake to another border guard in another country might be even more complicated than stopping the Italian border guard from stamping it in the first place. People keep saying in articles that it won't affect your rights in Italy (or wherever) if it's stamped, but unless I am missing something, couldn't it cause problems for other trips to Europe? Any explanations gratefully received as I am (hopefully) about to visit the UK for the first time in 2 years and so have Covid and Brexit madness to deal with at the same time!

Serrano

As jiminalpago said "... makes no difference to someone with a demonstrable right to be permanently within the Schengen area". So, as long as you have a Brexit Gold Card (aka Carta di Soggiorno Permanente with the annotation "Art. 18.4 Accordo di Recesso UE-UK) - which is in a format that is recognised throughout the EU - then it would be a very brave (or stupid) border guard who would push their luck on that one

C.2s

I think there's a big difference though between what is right (or indeed what our are rights) and what actually happens in practice. There are thousands of examples of passports being stamped incorrectly. Obviously I don't know the motives of the staff involved, except to say my personal experience (which is of course anecdotal) is that at best they don't understand the rules.
rules. Some of them just stamp every UK passport. Sometimes it seems they do it with glee...

Last inbound flight into Rome my passport was stamped. When I persuaded the person that they'd made a mistake they just took their pen and drew two little lines across the corner of the stamp and said they had "cancelled" it... I'm not sure that's going to convince another border guard in the future.

There have already been a few cases of people in France who do have the right to stay in the EU being fined and/or having their passports stamped to say they have overstayed when trying to leave the EU because they previously received an erroneous entry stamp (and didn't exit within 90 days).

In another case a woman was denied entry to Spain to visit her son as she could not prove that she had ever left Spain because her passport wasn't stamped with an exit stamp on a previous visit. In this case she isn't resident in Spain, but it's an example of the way the authorities don't apply the rules based on logic (because how could she possibly be entering Spain if she had never left?). All that mattered was the entry stamp/no exit stamp situation

As for the new system that is being implemented to demonstrate rights is not the same in each country (for example in Italy a card is optional but in France it's obligatory), so I don't think that'll clear everything up So unfortunately, based on the experience so far, I don't think I'll be surprised if we have all sorts of problems in the future.

philat98

The EU are bringing in their new Schengen border control system ESS next summer. After that there will be no stamping of passports. I dont suppose the computer will take any pleasure in recording entry and exit

jiminalpago

My opinion is based more on the practicalities rather than on the Rights, which exist in law.
Consider entry to and exit of the adopted home country:

Exit - what does the "man in the booth" do? Detain you? Send you back to wander the airport? Your luggage is probably already on the aircraft. He has to involve his chain-of-command, the airline, the airport authorities. And why would a border guard stop a foreigner leaving?
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Entry - to repulse you, "the man", again, has to involve the chain-of-command, etc. I can't see the controversy lasting long (and you are already on home soil). (C2s' personal story above suggests that you only have to have a suitable paper and to speak up for yourself.)

At the Schengen boundary, e.g. in a vehicle, there is a possibility of a problem on entry; correct paperwork should resolve it but, again, you might have to speak up, as you sometimes have to in UK. On exit, the basic problem - for the guard - is what does he do with you!
I should add that in August I went out via Rotterdam and in via Calais without stress.
As for the period spent in Italy counting towards your 90-day limit, I don't pretend to know the wording of the regulation but a logical interpretation would be that you are for this context a Schengen resident and the 90 day limit only applies to those countries for which you don't have right of residence. Exit and entry as above.