JulieVenice

Hi everyone,
Forgive me if this has been posted - but I did try searching and can't find an answer!
I was wondering if anyone has married here in Italy and whether they knew the ins and outs of communione dei beni/ versus separazione dei beni?
Also, is this valid in a UK court if God forbid one does divorce after a time....eeeek?
As I say, if there is a big thead on this apologies, but can't find it!

Thanks in advance!

Lorna at Vicenza

I'll try and put this article into English for you but without all the big Italian words so forgive me if I make it brief and simple.

One thing I didn't know - but do now, is that whatever choice you make - it can at any future time of the marriage be changed by making an atto pubblico at a notaio.

Here goes :

What is the comunione dei beni?
Choosing this option means that anything bought after the marriage belongs to both partners.
In particular this refers to ...
* any property bought after the marriage - even if it has been bought seperately from one another, property like land, shops, cars. Personal goods do not count.

* Earnings from assets of both partners, bank ones for example.
* Businesses managed by both partners and founded after the marriage.
* gains and profits from a business that belongs to one partner but managed by both partners after the marriage.

Debts are also a part of the comune dei beni whether they are debts caused by both partners or caused seperately. This includes debts occuring on a single assest such as a house mortgage.

Each partner however keeps as his/her very own :

* assests owned before the marriage.
* Any inheritence or donations - even if these come after the marriage.
* Personal goods and accessories.
* Any monies paid out for physical damages like an incurance pay out or an invalidity / disabled pension.
* Earnings gained from the sale of any above mentioned assests.

In the case of selling a house/property or other extraordinary amministrative acts - consent of both partners is necessary. If both partners cannot agree, a judge will decide if the wishes of one spouse is for the better of the family unit or family business.

Dissolution of the comune dei beni occurs when:
* one of the spouses dies.
* The marriage gets annulled, seperation, divorce.
* Both partners decide to change the state of the marriatal estate.
* One of the spouses is declared bankrupt.
* Judicial separation of the assests.



What is the separazione dei beni ?

This means that each spouse has exclusive rights over assests/goods bought before and after the marriage - even if they are used by both spouses.
That spouse therefore has the right to manage or administrate them as long as he/she complies with the duties sanctioned in Articoli 143 e 147 del Codice Civile.
After chossing the separazione dei beni - goods or assests can still be co-owned as a comune dei bene as long as this wish is clearly declared on the legal forms (atto) at the moment of aquisition - and the quota of each spouse must be specified too.


Not sure if that's what you wanted but hope it helps.

It certainly explains why a girl I know here who thought that she'd get half the value of her husband's house, didn't get a single pennny. The house was his and his only long before he met her.

JulieVenice

Hi Lorna thanks so much that's really helpful!
I know it's awful thinking about these things before marriage...but I didn't even know these options were available until I went to the commune yesterday and she told me...hence my thoughts now.

Thank you again

Lorna at Vicenza

I forgot to add the link :

http://lemienozze.elle.it/organizzaz...zione-beni.php

and I forgot to say that I'm not sure about UK courts.

An English friend of mine left her Italian husband but she went to Italian courts before leaving him to ask for the seperazione legale and most importantly to get permission to take her kids back to the UK. She didn't want anything else and they were renting a flat so there was no house to fight over etc. or many other assests.

3 years later she had to fly back here to go before the judge to say that nothing had changed. The judge decided visiting rights etc. both for here and there and how much money the father was supposed to pay. She had a lawyer here to speak for her if ever necesary at other times and the nulla osta was posted to her house in England.

JulieVenice

ooh ps do you happen to know what happens when either spouse dies re property under separazione dei beni?

Lorna at Vicenza

That's a whole other load of legal stuff as kids get involved and I don't know enough about it.

My OH is 40 and he's still going to the notaio and signing bits of paper because his mum wouldn't have been able to sell the house and move on without his signature. A small part of the house belonged to him after his father died years and years ago.

From this I'm presuming that under the separazione dei beni - everything goes onto the kids as you have no rights at all to the house. What's his is his and will pass onto the kids under the laws of ......... rights of succession. (Think that's what it is called). Same as what's yours is yours.

Lorna at Vicenza

Julie,

There might be something on this older thread about Italian inheritences - if you want to wadlle through it.



http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...t=giandomenico

Mr Posh

If my wife asked that question before we got married i would have told her to sling her hook

In my eyes you mary for love not "what if"

Ma Va La

Lorna at Vicenza

Yeah, I'm sure we all marry for love but it doesn't hurt to ask a few questions. What if your lovely Italian husband walks out on you and runs off with somebody else? You are still stuck in Italy and it's better to know where you stand in that eventuality.

Lorna at Vicenza

Silly me - been here too long. It's not a nulla osta is it.

It's a decree nisi or something.

Mr Posh

Lorna where is the romance, the adventure, the love?
Ye Shit happens but it could happen In the UK as it can in Italy....

JulieVenice

Yes Mr Posh of course we all marry for love. But if you read my second post I said I did not know these options were available and was simply asking what they mean from people here who may have more experience than me in these terms.

I didn't come on saying 'hey, I am a golddigger/ mean with my cash and want to protect myself from my hubby' did I?

As Lorna says, doesn't hurt to ask questions when in another country and entering a legally binding contract!

Lorna at Vicenza

Yeah but when shit happens in the UK you generally know what to do about it.

When shit happens in Italy, you more than likely are not sure where to go, who to speak to or what to do next..... and Italian shit can stick and hang around for a lot longer.

Mr Posh

Easy: I was not the one asking....so tell me what did it sound like....Ho i love him so much i trust him 100%? not in my eyes....And I have never said anyone is a gold digger...thats what you must have thought I thought in what you wrote

Its a bit of light humour....your lucky Mr D did not answer you

JulieVenice

How is asking for advice on Italian marriage law of any bearing whatsoever on my feelings for a prospective partner? The Italians make the laws not me - I was just asking what they meant.

Oh and by the way, it's 'you're' not 'your'...