The Italian Disaster
May 30th 2014, 8:56 pm
#1
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The Italian Disaster
I thought some members might be interested in this: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n10/perry-a...alian-disaster
May 31st 2014, 4:45 am
#2
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Re: The Italian Disaster
yes, primula alerted me to that.
Thank you primula.
I'd be interested in what anyone thinks of the portrayal of Napolitano in that piece.
Thank you primula.
I'd be interested in what anyone thinks of the portrayal of Napolitano in that piece.
Jun 7th 2014, 6:25 am
#3
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Re: The Italian Disaster
resounding silence on this one.
Jun 7th 2014, 1:23 pm
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Re: The Italian Disaster
Yes - many thanks for this link to an extremely very well researched and detailed analysis of contemporary Italian politics written by an English (marxist?) professor in California. Very worrying comments about the new electoral law and a lot of criticism of Napolitano who comes over as a bit of a hero on Italian TV at the moment. A bit of sympathy with Grillo too who at least puts corruption on the very top of his agenda and wanted to get rid of Napolitano. I'm not qualified to comment_ but when are they actually going to send a few of these corrupt politicians to Prison? Why do they take so long
Jun 7th 2014, 6:15 pm
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Jun 8th 2014, 8:32 am
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Re: The Italian Disaster
not harsh enough, interesting Sunday morning read. Thanks Sancho.
Jun 8th 2014, 1:53 pm
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Re: The Italian Disaster
I tend to agree from what I know mike.
I have had him referred to as "King George" once or twice when I have been in Italy and I know some have seen him as all that stands between Italy and its collapse as a nation state but (and yes I accept that it was a long time ago) his position on Hungary seemed particularly craven/dogmatic and might I suppose help explain why so many Italians were so virulently anti communist for so long.
One then wonders if he was trying to over-compensate for this shameful position by saying some very dodgy things on the occasion of what I think was the first "foibe memorial day". Seem to remember that he spoke of Slav expansionism or some such rot and that there was maybe a hint that a transfer of territory to Italy in that area might smooth some folks' entry into Europe.
More recently I get the impression that he has at times been less than tough on the democratic abomination that is Berlusconi though that might also be a reflection on the sheer difficulty of moulding together Italy's various factions.
I have had him referred to as "King George" once or twice when I have been in Italy and I know some have seen him as all that stands between Italy and its collapse as a nation state but (and yes I accept that it was a long time ago) his position on Hungary seemed particularly craven/dogmatic and might I suppose help explain why so many Italians were so virulently anti communist for so long.
One then wonders if he was trying to over-compensate for this shameful position by saying some very dodgy things on the occasion of what I think was the first "foibe memorial day". Seem to remember that he spoke of Slav expansionism or some such rot and that there was maybe a hint that a transfer of territory to Italy in that area might smooth some folks' entry into Europe.
More recently I get the impression that he has at times been less than tough on the democratic abomination that is Berlusconi though that might also be a reflection on the sheer difficulty of moulding together Italy's various factions.
Jun 8th 2014, 2:14 pm
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Re: The Italian Disaster
I tend to agree from what I know mike.
I have had him referred to as "King George" once or twice when I have been in Italy and I know some have seen him as all that stands between Italy and its collapse as a nation state but (and yes I accept that it was a long time ago) his position on Hungary seemed particularly craven/dogmatic and might I suppose help explain why so many Italians were so virulently anti communist for so long.
One then wonders if he was trying to over-compensate for this shameful position by saying some very dodgy things on the occasion of what I think was the first "foibe memorial day". Seem to remember that he spoke of Slav expansionism or some such rot and that there was maybe a hint that a transfer of territory to Italy in that area might smooth some folks' entry into Europe.
More recently I get the impression that he has at times been less than tough on the democratic abomination that is Berlusconi though that might also be a reflection on the sheer difficulty of moulding together Italy's various factions.
I have had him referred to as "King George" once or twice when I have been in Italy and I know some have seen him as all that stands between Italy and its collapse as a nation state but (and yes I accept that it was a long time ago) his position on Hungary seemed particularly craven/dogmatic and might I suppose help explain why so many Italians were so virulently anti communist for so long.
One then wonders if he was trying to over-compensate for this shameful position by saying some very dodgy things on the occasion of what I think was the first "foibe memorial day". Seem to remember that he spoke of Slav expansionism or some such rot and that there was maybe a hint that a transfer of territory to Italy in that area might smooth some folks' entry into Europe.
More recently I get the impression that he has at times been less than tough on the democratic abomination that is Berlusconi though that might also be a reflection on the sheer difficulty of moulding together Italy's various factions.
Jun 10th 2014, 7:02 am
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Re: The Italian Disaster
His recent speech re jobs for the young was a prime example of don't do as I do etc. His cover up on past dealings with the Mafia.................and the history that he interprets in his own way...........Normandy, what was he doing there?
M
M
Jun 10th 2014, 11:05 am
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Re: The Italian Disaster
About Napolitano: Yes, Sunnysider asked me my impressions about his figure, but I forgot to answer - maybe a lapsus? :-) It is very painful for me anyway to be compelled to admit that we Italians have very bad politicians. But I have to subscribe every word of Sunnysider, I must say.
About the "anticommunism": well, it is true that there has been a strong "anti-communist feeling" (I would say better: anti PCI), but not only from the right side:
maybe you know that, among the young left people in the '70s, there has been a strong opposition to the PCI (Partito Comunista Italiano) from the left side. Maybe you know the story of the "il manifesto" group - a group of communists intellectuals, members of the PCI, some also ex-members of parliaments (Rossana Rossanda) who have been expelled from the PCI in those years, as they criticised the PCI positions about the Praga facts in 1969, raised an issue concerning the absence of democracy inside the Communist Party, and founded the non-orthodox left newspaper "il manifesto". Napolitano, at the time of course one of the right wing establishment of the PCI, voted for the expulsion.
if you want to know more about the "il manifesto":
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_manifesto
ciao, Primula
About the "anticommunism": well, it is true that there has been a strong "anti-communist feeling" (I would say better: anti PCI), but not only from the right side:
maybe you know that, among the young left people in the '70s, there has been a strong opposition to the PCI (Partito Comunista Italiano) from the left side. Maybe you know the story of the "il manifesto" group - a group of communists intellectuals, members of the PCI, some also ex-members of parliaments (Rossana Rossanda) who have been expelled from the PCI in those years, as they criticised the PCI positions about the Praga facts in 1969, raised an issue concerning the absence of democracy inside the Communist Party, and founded the non-orthodox left newspaper "il manifesto". Napolitano, at the time of course one of the right wing establishment of the PCI, voted for the expulsion.
if you want to know more about the "il manifesto":
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_manifesto
ciao, Primula
I tend to agree from what I know mike.
I have had him referred to as "King George" once or twice when I have been in Italy and I know some have seen him as all that stands between Italy and its collapse as a nation state but (and yes I accept that it was a long time ago) his position on Hungary seemed particularly craven/dogmatic and might I suppose help explain why so many Italians were so virulently anti communist for so long.
.
I have had him referred to as "King George" once or twice when I have been in Italy and I know some have seen him as all that stands between Italy and its collapse as a nation state but (and yes I accept that it was a long time ago) his position on Hungary seemed particularly craven/dogmatic and might I suppose help explain why so many Italians were so virulently anti communist for so long.
.
Jun 10th 2014, 12:19 pm
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Re: The Italian Disaster
About Napolitano: Yes, Sunnysider asked me my impressions about his figure, but I forgot to answer - maybe a lapsus? :-) It is very painful for me anyway to be compelled to admit that we Italians have very bad politicians. But I have to subscribe every word of Sunnysider, I must say.
About the "anticommunism": well, it is true that there has been a strong "anti-communist feeling" (I would say better: anti PCI), but not only from the right side:
maybe you know that, among the young left people in the '70s, there has been a strong opposition to the PCI (Partito Comunista Italiano) from the left side. Maybe you know the story of the "il manifesto" group - a group of communists intellectuals, members of the PCI, some also ex-members of parliaments (Rossana Rossanda) who have been expelled from the PCI in those years, as they criticised the PCI positions about the Praga facts in 1969, raised an issue concerning the absence of democracy inside the Communist Party, and founded the non-orthodox left newspaper "il manifesto". Napolitano, at the time of course one of the right wing establishment of the PCI, voted for the expulsion.
if you want to know more about the "il manifesto":
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_manifesto
ciao, Primula
About the "anticommunism": well, it is true that there has been a strong "anti-communist feeling" (I would say better: anti PCI), but not only from the right side:
maybe you know that, among the young left people in the '70s, there has been a strong opposition to the PCI (Partito Comunista Italiano) from the left side. Maybe you know the story of the "il manifesto" group - a group of communists intellectuals, members of the PCI, some also ex-members of parliaments (Rossana Rossanda) who have been expelled from the PCI in those years, as they criticised the PCI positions about the Praga facts in 1969, raised an issue concerning the absence of democracy inside the Communist Party, and founded the non-orthodox left newspaper "il manifesto". Napolitano, at the time of course one of the right wing establishment of the PCI, voted for the expulsion.
if you want to know more about the "il manifesto":
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_manifesto
ciao, Primula
Good to see someone who really knows Italy joining in. So do you think the LRB thing is right about Napolitano ?
Last edited by Sancho; Jun 10th 2014 at 12:22 pm.
Jun 10th 2014, 10:13 pm
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Re: The Italian Disaster
it is sad to say but yes, the book you mentioned, "the Italian Disaster", is definitively right. I would not change a word and I share all the critics to Napolitano.
Reading this, it is easy to understand why the right voted for him as President.
And, I must say, the defeat of Stefano Rodota' as President in 2013 and the re-election of Giorgio Napolitano has been a very bad thing not only for the left but for the future of democracy in Italy.
have a good night
Primula
Jun 11th 2014, 11:35 am
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Re: The Italian Disaster
[QUOTE=primularossa;11297041], the defeat of Stefano Rodota' as President in 2013 and the re-election of Giorgio Napolitano has been a very bad thing not only for the left but for the future of democracy in Italy.
I can remember the moment that Rodota didn't get elected very well. His name was put forward by 5 Stelle - he seemed the ideal candidat with the backing of both Grillo and his own party but for some extraordinary reason the PD didn't vote for him! GF said she would never vote for the PD again and it still seems a mystery that he didn't win - the only plausible reason being that his name was put forward by Cinque Stelle??
I can remember the moment that Rodota didn't get elected very well. His name was put forward by 5 Stelle - he seemed the ideal candidat with the backing of both Grillo and his own party but for some extraordinary reason the PD didn't vote for him! GF said she would never vote for the PD again and it still seems a mystery that he didn't win - the only plausible reason being that his name was put forward by Cinque Stelle??