StGeorge1996

2 questions, if anyone has ideas:
Q1: i have made 3.5 years of contributions to INPS in the past. Is it correct to think that I can claim an Italian pension (without needing to combine UK contributions), if i reach 5+ years of INPS contributions and achieve a minimum contribution level (€166k)??

Q2: How does one calculate what contributions have been made to INPS for the purposes of calculating a pension?
I have an "estratto conto" from the INPS which details what contributions have actually been made (back in 1997-1999) - but I understand that today there is also a cap of 33% x gross salary.
For the sake of calculating contributions made, should I believe 100% in the estratto conto, or do I need to apply a cap (contributo massimale)?
grazie.

Geordieborn

You certainly will be able to claim, not too sure you will qualify, but it seems you know a bit more than I do (little to nothing). Regards any UK contributions, simply don't tick you have worked elsewhere in the EU and pain contributions. Having worked on calculating these pensions I do know we had many Italian claims prior to UK retirement as back then their pension age was way before that of the UK. However I'm sure there would be many more Italians who simply told the Italian authorities they did not pay UK conts (likely because they did not know they had).

philat98

I think the local INPS office or CGIL office would know the answer.There is quite a good online forum finanzaonline.

jonwel

There's also the CAF - Centro di Assistenza Fiscale. I found them quite helpful.

But a question to Geordieborn: what advsntage is there in not telling INPS that you've paid contributions in another EU country?

My case is a low level of pension (I had contribution gaps), but it was found that together I had at least 20 years of contributions, which qualified me for a pension, with INPS and DWP each paying their part according to what I'd paid to each of them. DWP started paying when I was 65, INPS when I was 66 and 9 months (both retirement ages have upped since then).

modicasa

I have been to two INPS offices in the last week to find out about pension integration post Brexit. The first said they knew nothing and sent me tothe experts at the capo provincia. Their first question.... Whats Brexit?
Don't hold your breath.

Geordieborn

jonwel no advantage that I know of, it was just that's what the OP seemed to be after. Only thing I could see was the possibility of delays, Italy was by far the worst country to deal with regards delays of months/years! Yes, combined contributions from other states could be used to satisfy minimum contribution rules as well as other restrictions.

Geordieborn

Do let us know if you ever find out what (if anything) has replaced EU pensions for UK/Italy. I assumed the legislation for bi-lateral agreement would have never been dropped and would revert back in place, but have no idea if the UK/Italy ever had such an agreement?

jonwel

Thanks Geordie.
Another snippet that might help some people: it's better to have enough contributions in one country and get your pension there, and then add on those from another country. For example, let's say you've got 18 years paid in Italy and four years in the UK; you'd be entitled to retire, but if you go on working for 2-3 years you can get an Italian pension without reference to the British one, which could then be added on. A colleague did this, but I didn't find out what difference it made (unfortunately the poor man died soon after retirement - he'd gone on working until he was nearly 70, commuting too).

christmasoompa

Plus if somebody did have 4 years of contributions in the UK, that could be turned in to a full UK pension with voluntary NI contributions - one of the best returns on investment around. I know that some countries (NZ springs to mind) don't allow you to claim both though, but most do.

Geordieborn

I'm pretty sure we had Italian pensions claimed at 55, certainly age 60, so things have changed a lot since.
christmasoompa makes a good point re paying voluntary contributions. Not too sure most have not missed the boat for some of the years they had available to pay back when the pension system changed in April 2016, but it made an abnormal difference in your favour to pay. Of course it is/was a gamble that you lived long enough to gain your money back.... We bought back £5000+ combined and it only took just over 2 years to recover it all and that's without taking into account the pension increases...

modicasa

But you cant pay contributions for the same years in 2 countries at the same time, as one will get cancelled out. The lady at INPS very proudly told me they have a telematic hub in BRussels which connects with the DWP. Im waiting for a call with 'an expert' next week, who will give me all the ins and outs, but it seems that after Boris forgot to include pensions in the WA, there has been a reversion to the previous set up and you can now totalise/integrate your pensions.
On the subject of 2 pensions in 2 countries - I qualify in both the UK and Italy - so what Jonwel is saying is take both pensions? From what I understand (until the expert tells me otherwise) If I bring my UK years here, I would get a maggiorazione and end up getting more in one pension than in two smaller ones. Or is that an urban myth?

Geordieborn

I'm not too sure this is correct, but you can't use both in a combined pension calculation. Basically what was the case in the UK was they would calculate your UK pension without using any foreign contributions and if that come to 100% pension they would NOT bother to calculate any further using any other foreign contributions/residence. I added the latter as the likes of Denmark were resident based. Which is another reason I believe overlapping contributions are simply ignored.
On the question of amounts, both authorities calculate your pension with and without any other EU contributions and pay the higher of the two. However the combined pension is reduced by multiplying the country calculating conts/ combined conts by the combined amount derived e.g.
IT/UK
x CombinedAmt
I can't recall if this was the combined percentage or combined amount. In most cases we the UK dealt with (all) any UK pension was larger. Where people scored was when (often) a UK pension would not be payable due to the minimum pension rules. To be honest it is quite complex and if I were in your unfortunate position I would be digging out the Regs covering it as I know the staff doing it were never that sure... On the plus side you do (did) get the right to appeal, then they have to make sure they are correct!

From what you are saying Modi there must have been a bi-lateral agreement between Italy and the UK which I would guess may add up to being the same as an EU Italy/UK pension situation (which is good).

Geordieborn

Paying whilst living or working abroad rules are here for the UK. There are some restrictions but quite limited. Interesting para on the mistake by HMRC! Looks like you have another mess whereby they are giving you longer to pay arrears...

modicasa

Yes Geordieborn, my mistake - you cant pay in both countries for the same year if you want to totalise the pension is what I clumsily meant.
So the problem I need to resolve is to whether to choose a pension in both countries when Im of age, or combine the two and possibly get a lower one, or less likely still a higher one. But if I choose two pensions, I would probably end up paying more tax... plus one would be in sterling with all that that may entail.

Geordieborn

I don't understand your dilemma Modi. Unless things have changed there is no choice involved as both countries are required to calculate your pension with and without any foreign contributions and pay whichever of the 2 comes out higher. Obviously the tax and sterling implications will apply. For the latter from what I remember was that you could have your pension paid abroad and I seem to recall it is converted at the time of payment. That being the case, if you can do so, I would guess it would be better to have it paid into a UK account in Sterling and handle any conversion as it suits you. I was interested to read this option the UK government gives for payment
Sounds messy to me.