Awkward
May 7th 2024 | 5:55 am
#17
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 700
From: UK ex Rome
Re: Awkward
Several decades ago I lived in Torino, one Easter my parents came to stay for a week and, when I introduced them to my landlord (who was of a similar age as my parents), my landlord asked my Dad if he had been to Italy before. My Dad replied that although he had never actually set foot in Italy he had been close. My landlord asked "how close"? My Dad replied "about 22,000 feet!"
May 7th 2024 | 9:35 am
#18
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 223
From: Milan area
Re: Awkward
Nice one!
-----
Re C.2s I'm in category 3 (or maybe 2) on your scale of entitlement. My late grannies met each other when they were in a bomb shelter - they got married after the war. They would tell me plenty of wartime stories, which I enjoyed listening to.
But I certainly see where you're coming from - it must sound really odd when people start owning WW2 as though they had lived through those turbulent times. That said, I feel immensely grateful to the brave soldiers who sacrificed their lives for our peace. 'Lest we forget' doesn't and shouldn't ring hollow.
-----
Re C.2s I'm in category 3 (or maybe 2) on your scale of entitlement. My late grannies met each other when they were in a bomb shelter - they got married after the war. They would tell me plenty of wartime stories, which I enjoyed listening to.
But I certainly see where you're coming from - it must sound really odd when people start owning WW2 as though they had lived through those turbulent times. That said, I feel immensely grateful to the brave soldiers who sacrificed their lives for our peace. 'Lest we forget' doesn't and shouldn't ring hollow.
May 7th 2024 | 10:41 pm
#19
Thread Starter
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,186
May 7th 2024 | 11:04 pm
#20
Thread Starter
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,186
Re: Awkward
Well it does a bit when you realise that the person who coined this phrase was a colonialist, jingoist, racist, anti-Semite, misogynist, right-wing imperialist warmonger who was complicit in encouraging millions to their rather futile deaths in WW1. But to be fair to him these were basically the mainstream political views at the time (though he was quite prominent in promulgating these beliefs). And I guess that without him we'd never have been told to look for the bare necessities and forget about our worries and strife, so overall it could be argued that his contribution to the world sort of evened out. It's just that those views aren't really mainstream anymore.
I'm not suggesting we forget.
It's reasonable that the vast majority of people only 'know' a simplified narrative of WW2. Even amongst historians there are only a few who might be able to claim to have a really profound knowledge of all aspects, given that it's such a broad subject. But that means that the 'story' that people know is inherently selected 'highlights', and then the question is who selected what to remember and what to forget?
I'm not suggesting we forget.
It's reasonable that the vast majority of people only 'know' a simplified narrative of WW2. Even amongst historians there are only a few who might be able to claim to have a really profound knowledge of all aspects, given that it's such a broad subject. But that means that the 'story' that people know is inherently selected 'highlights', and then the question is who selected what to remember and what to forget?
May 8th 2024 | 5:27 am
#23
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 3,317
Re: Awkward
in my experience (see above) the British tend to get more exercised about this sort of thing. Take your OP and the thread title - I saw both and thought, well, not a deal at all but maybe at most an opportunity for a passing comment or even a bit of humour - certainly nothing to feel awkward about.
NB: Experiences may differ!
NBB: Maybe your thread title was a bit tongue in cheek, don't know!
NB: Experiences may differ!
NBB: Maybe your thread title was a bit tongue in cheek, don't know!
Last edited by Finknottle; May 8th 2024 at 5:41 am.
May 8th 2024 | 5:52 am
#24
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,780
From: Central Italy
Re: Awkward
Well that's true. I was exaggerating a bit and maybe didn't make my point clearly. I'll try again.
I don't believe my personal view comes from an absence of knowledge about WW2. In fact I probably know more than the average person (having studied and taught the subject), but I reject the notion of any personal connection to it.
I hear other British people talk about WW2 as if they have a close personal connection. Is that justified?
​​​​​​My opinion as follows:
Category 1- fair enough if you fought in/lived through WW2 (you'd probably be over 100 years old now, but okay it's possible).
Category 2- And okay it's fair enough if your mother/father/ older sibling etc fought in/lived through WW2 (but obviously less justified than category 1)
Category 3 - Also fair enough if your grandfather etc told you about WW2 (but again less than category 1 and 2)
Category 4 - getting quite tenuous if you have no family connection (or other direct connection) to anyone in the above categories. This category includes me
Category 5. - the many millions of British people alive today that are second (or subsequent) generation immigrant
I often hear people saying terms like "Our brave boys" , and then when you ask them it turns out they are either in category 4 or don't appreciate that they're rather thoughtlessly including all the category 4 and 5 people in their use of "we/us". And that can be a bit dangerous. It's funny because for the Boomers it was unfashionable to talk about WW2 in the 70s and 80s, but now it seems to be difficult for us to move forward. And also, sadly, the same people who keep talking about the war often don't seem to know much about it
​
I don't believe my personal view comes from an absence of knowledge about WW2. In fact I probably know more than the average person (having studied and taught the subject), but I reject the notion of any personal connection to it.
I hear other British people talk about WW2 as if they have a close personal connection. Is that justified?
​​​​​​My opinion as follows:
Category 1- fair enough if you fought in/lived through WW2 (you'd probably be over 100 years old now, but okay it's possible).
Category 2- And okay it's fair enough if your mother/father/ older sibling etc fought in/lived through WW2 (but obviously less justified than category 1)
Category 3 - Also fair enough if your grandfather etc told you about WW2 (but again less than category 1 and 2)
Category 4 - getting quite tenuous if you have no family connection (or other direct connection) to anyone in the above categories. This category includes me
Category 5. - the many millions of British people alive today that are second (or subsequent) generation immigrant
I often hear people saying terms like "Our brave boys" , and then when you ask them it turns out they are either in category 4 or don't appreciate that they're rather thoughtlessly including all the category 4 and 5 people in their use of "we/us". And that can be a bit dangerous. It's funny because for the Boomers it was unfashionable to talk about WW2 in the 70s and 80s, but now it seems to be difficult for us to move forward. And also, sadly, the same people who keep talking about the war often don't seem to know much about it
​
May 8th 2024 | 5:55 am
#25
Thread Starter
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,186
Re: Awkward
in my experience (see above) the British tend to get more exercised about this sort of thing. Take your OP and the thread title - I saw both and thought, well, not a deal at all but maybe an opportunity for a passing comment or even a bit of humour - certainly nothing to feel awkward about.
NB: Experiences may differ!
NBB: Maybe your thread title was a bit tongue in cheek, don't know!
NB: Experiences may differ!
NBB: Maybe your thread title was a bit tongue in cheek, don't know!
It was.
And I agree with you about people in the military probably enjoying that I was being a bit goliardico (using banter). Is it different in the UK? Maybe publicly...I have some experience of working with people in various Public Services (military/nursing/police etc) in the UK and think that the black comedy/dark comedy/ gallows humour etc is quite common almost as a way of dealing with the situations they encounter that's quite difficult, and I shudder to think what the general public would make of some of it.
So, yes I did intend humour. Hence my use of my strange smiley face after my OP. And then I thought "Hang on, I'm commenting on a public forum and perhaps not everyone will get my sense of humour, and this won't look good if the bomb explodes!" ... thankfully for everyone it didn't.
May 8th 2024 | 6:03 am
#26
Thread Starter
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,186
May 8th 2024 | 6:14 am
#27
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,780
From: Central Italy
Re: Awkward
May 8th 2024 | 6:20 am
#28
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 3,317
Re: Awkward
It was.
And I agree with you about people in the military probably enjoying that I was being a bit goliardico (using banter). Is it different in the UK? Maybe publicly...I have some experience of working with people in various Public Services (military/nursing/police etc) in the UK and think that the black comedy/dark comedy/ gallows humour etc is quite common almost as a way of dealing with the situations they encounter that's quite difficult, and I shudder to think what the general public would make of some of it.
So, yes I did intend humour. Hence my use of my strange smiley face after my OP. And then I thought "Hang on, I'm commenting on a public forum and perhaps not everyone will get my sense of humour, and this won't look good if the bomb explodes!" ... thankfully for everyone it didn't.
And I agree with you about people in the military probably enjoying that I was being a bit goliardico (using banter). Is it different in the UK? Maybe publicly...I have some experience of working with people in various Public Services (military/nursing/police etc) in the UK and think that the black comedy/dark comedy/ gallows humour etc is quite common almost as a way of dealing with the situations they encounter that's quite difficult, and I shudder to think what the general public would make of some of it.
So, yes I did intend humour. Hence my use of my strange smiley face after my OP. And then I thought "Hang on, I'm commenting on a public forum and perhaps not everyone will get my sense of humour, and this won't look good if the bomb explodes!" ... thankfully for everyone it didn't.
I do think the British have a different take on the war, not entirely surprising given the history, and the geography. Some of the posts above reflect that, I think.
May 8th 2024 | 7:17 am
#29
Thread Starter
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,186
Re: Awkward
​​​​​"Air Chief Marshal Dowding... would later write:
‘Had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of the battle would have been the same.'"
(From www.rafmuseum.org.uk)
Of course I'd say this should be taught in UK schools... but I would have to acknowledge that I am motivated to tell a certain version of history that fits with my modem political views :-)
​​
May 8th 2024 | 8:12 am
#30
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 3,317
Re: Awkward
Oh I see. Absolutely agree. And not only Russians. and Americans. Contributions from Commonwealth countries, occupied countries,etc. such as Polish pilots in the Battle of Britain.
​​​​​"Air Chief Marshal Dowding... would later write:
‘Had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of the battle would have been the same.'"
(From www.rafmuseum.org.uk)
Of course I'd say this should be taught in UK schools... but I would have to acknowledge that I am motivated to tell a certain version of history that fits with my modem political views :-)
​​
​​​​​"Air Chief Marshal Dowding... would later write:
‘Had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of the battle would have been the same.'"
(From www.rafmuseum.org.uk)
Of course I'd say this should be taught in UK schools... but I would have to acknowledge that I am motivated to tell a certain version of history that fits with my modem political views :-)
​​
