zag

Hi all,

Sorry if this has been posted before, but I had a quick search and couldn't find any reference.

Picture this : I have loads of experience in IT and took the (relatively unresearched) plunge and headed off to NZ on a 6 month holiday visa, pretty sure I would get myself *some form* of employment. I know the global IT situation is in recession, but I was pretty sure I could get something.

Anyway, cut to 5.5 months later - wife and kids have returned home and I am on the final 2 weeks of pleading with agencies.

I have found a patently hostile atmosphere over here towards non-working-visa people. This is totally at odds with the NZIS OSL and PSL schemes which are supposed to provide a fast track to people with demonstrated IT skills.

Basically most of the IT ads come with the tag line that you shouldn't expect a reply if you do not possess a visa before applying. There are definite shades of 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish'.

While I can understand individual organisations not wanting to run the risk or hassle of providing the paperwork for someone without a visa I find it quite amazing that the agencies basically seem to have an institutionalised approach - they will not facilitate people looking to use the NZIS OSL and PSL route.

Anyway, this might sound like sour grapes and to a degree it is, but I just think it is only fair to point out to people (over 30) hoping to move to NZ via the holiday visa followed by a job visa route that this to all intents and purposes seems to be a non-runner.

Or maybe someone can give some hints on how to overcome this problem.

Cheers,

z

Don

First of all, sorry you are not having much luck finding a job offer. (You are not officially & legally allowed by NZIS to come to NZ principally to look for work on a tourist visa.)

It's rather sweeping to say that a hostile atmosphere because you have no work visa means there's something wrong with the OSL and PSL routes. Maybe your skills are not in demand? Or your work experience not appropriate? Or you don't come across well in interview? There could be many reasons why you are not being successful in your job hunt.

However, you may be right that there is no burning need for IT to be on the OSL any more in NZ or for applicants with IT skills to be given a special PR route. Australia recently decided many ITC applicants no longer merited fast track PR entry.

Your 'no dogs, no Blacks, no Irish' comment may be what you personally feel but I would point out that NZ has very rightly got some of the strongest anti-racist and anti-discrimination laws in the world. Otherwise, welcome to the real world where life isn't equal for all. People going for job interviews are definitely assessed on skills and experience but also amongst others on the applicant's intelligence, age, maturity, personality, attitude, how they will fit in with the team, pleasing facial appearance.

Cheers - Don

ptlabs

Am I glad I fixed my broken front tooth a few years ago....

ptlabs

Most, if not all developed nations have restrictions against non-citizen non-work visa holders looking for a job. This is an accepted international norm that has its reasons and merits.

If you did some research in the labour laws of your own country (assuming you're from the UK, EU, US, Canada, Japan, South Korea and other developed countries), you will most likely find the same clause will exist in one fashion or another.


Peter

Don

I'm sure you look very nice now...ol' Snaggletooth! Seriously, I read some research which 'demonstrated' that the nicer looking people tended to get ahead in business. Must explain why I'm a dustbinman.

Cheers - Don

Neil Raines

    > I have found a patently hostile atmosphere over here towards
    > non-working-visa people. This is totally at odds with the NZIS OSL and
    > PSL schemes which are supposed to provide a fast track to people with
    > demonstrated IT skills.

It requires lots of effort (paperwork) to assist someone get a visa. NZ
employers, like people everywhere, wish to lead a simple life without
engaging in a paperwork war with immigration. Also most NZ companies are
small and want someone who can start immediately.

    > Basically most of the IT ads come with the tag line that you shouldn't
    > expect a reply if you do not possess a visa before applying. There are
    > definite shades of 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish'.

Absolely crap; NZ is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the
world, particularly Auckland. Sometimes there are just no jobs requiring
your skills.
    > While I can understand individual organisations not wanting to run the
    > risk or hassle of providing the paperwork for someone without a visa I
    > find it quite amazing that the agencies basically seem to have an
    > institutionalised approach - they will not facilitate people looking to
    > use the NZIS OSL and PSL route.

Kjohnson

Hi
IT jobs are certainly less here in Nz than say 12-18 mths ago. Agencies
have limited offerings at present and in Nz tend not to respond too well to
pressure on them. My husband was recently interviewing for a vacancy and
found that the applicants were certainly more qualified than previously - eg
double degrees and tons of experience. Also more locals returning from
overseas. Currently, unless you have exceptional quals and skills or in a
vrey specific area where shortages exist, then this is a bad time to look.
General IT role are limited here as elsewhere, and with a small population,
options are always going to be less

Jean
Neil Raines wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > I have found a patently hostile atmosphere over here towards
    > > non-working-visa people. This is totally at odds with the NZIS OSL and
    > > PSL schemes which are supposed to provide a fast track to people with
    > > demonstrated IT skills.
    > It requires lots of effort (paperwork) to assist someone get a visa. NZ
    > employers, like people everywhere, wish to lead a simple life without
    > engaging in a paperwork war with immigration. Also most NZ companies are
    > small and want someone who can start immediately.
    > >
    > > Basically most of the IT ads come with the tag line that you shouldn't
    > > expect a reply if you do not possess a visa before applying. There are
    > > definite shades of 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish'.
    > Absolely crap; NZ is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the
    > world, particularly Auckland. Sometimes there are just no jobs requiring
    > your skills.
    > >
    > > While I can understand individual organisations not wanting to run the
    > > risk or hassle of providing the paperwork for someone without a visa I
    > > find it quite amazing that the agencies basically seem to have an
    > > institutionalised approach - they will not facilitate people looking to
    > > use the NZIS OSL and PSL route.
    > >

zag

Apologies - the 'no . . .' comment was not meant to imply racism. It was more a reflection of the situation whereby you can't get started on a certain path because you don't meet some non-essential criteria. I accept that NZ is not significantly more or less racist than other countries. On the OSL and PSL having a visa is not supposed to be an essential criteria for getting a job, but in practice it is.

I had posted a long reply, but for some reason it didn't show up.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I suppose the main thrust of the missing reply was that I accept that NZ doesn't owe me a job, but that it is worth pointing out to people intending to follow this route that there seems to be an insurmountable obstacle - the reluctance of employers and agencies to consider non-visa people.

I guess that given that agencies are interested in one thing primarily - commission - if they can get their commission through people who already have a visa then they don't need to help those who don't have a visa.

If I was an agent or employer at home I'm pretty sure I would have the same approach.

z

zag

Don,

Thanks for the reply. Just a quick query - I understood that coming on a holiday visa with a view to 'upgrading' to a work visa was a valid and recognised route. I checked specifically with NZIS in London and was told that this was not a problem and I would not be faced with an immigration officer asking what sort of clown I was when I applied for the work visa while here on a holiday visa.

I accept that my skills may not be in as much demand as I had expected.

The hostile atmosphere is quite real and quite tangible. I have talked to other people here in similar situations and the word is almost always the same - agencies simply do not return calls or emails a lot of the time. I accept that this is because they are busy and can fill the positions with people who already have a visa, but the fact remains that it is a hostile environment.

I have applied for positions where I am perfectly suited (and with relatively rare skills) and received no reply, not even an acknowledgement of my application

The wording in their adverts also leaves little to the imagination. Most of the time they say that people who are not legally entitled to work may not be replied to. Fair enough, except for the OSL and PSL positions. However, some of the wordings are very in your face and state quite bluntly and aggressively that non-visa people needn't bother applying. I accept that it may be better to be up front about it and save everyone time, but it still boils down to the same thing - if you don't have a visa, don't bother applying. That's hostile in my book.

I also accept that some agencies are helpfull and have attempted to find positions for me, but they are the minority.

Re - 'no dogs, . . .' see earlier post. No offence was intended regarding NZ and racism. It was just what seemed like suitabel wording at the time. I accept that NZ doesn't owe me a job and also that no one ever said the real world was fair.

z

Neil Raines

Agencies often do not reply to kiwi applicants either!

    > I have applied for positions where I am perfectly suited (and with
    > relatively rare skills) and received no reply, not even an
    > acknowledgement of my application
    > Cheers - Don
-
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Don

I think it's more a case of NZIS turning a blind eye to a technical infringement of the immigration rules, because if you manage to get a job offer while you are in NZ as a tourist, they know you will then subsequently have to get a valid work permit/ PR permit and 'go legal' in any case - and if you get a job offer you will be 'good' for NZ's economy.

OK, I take your clarification of earlier comments at face value. As I understand it, your main points are:

1. Poor job situation in IT.
2. Hard to be taken seriously by job agencies/ employers without a valid work permit.

Both seem valid points. Poor IT job situation does not surprise me (similar elewhere) - but conversely, NZ unemployment in general is at a very low point right now, just 3.3% for Pakeha (Europeans).

Good luck anyway, cheers - Don

Jaj

Not only would I endorse what Neil has said, but also observe that
migration and recruitment are two very different skill sets. Very few
if any organisations are good at both.

Jeremy

    >On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:55:04 +1200, "Neil Raines" wrote:
    >Using an agency will not help. There has been a flood of very well qualified
    >kiwis back from foreign parts who are finding it difficult. NZ is a VERY
    >small market.
    >> I've heard the Emigration Group has an employment agency based in
    >> Auckland which finds jobs for prospective migrants. Does anyone know if
    >> they're any good? From what's been said it seems that going it alone is
    >> pretty difficult
    >> --
    >> Posted via http://britishexpats.com

This is not intended to be legal advice in any jurisdiction

John Wheeler

Z,

I am sorry to your trip so far has not been successful. I
am always glad though to get word from 'someone in the field'
whose experiences lend a tangible bridge between this newsgroup
and the real pavement in NZ.

Regards,


zag wrote in message news:...
    > Hi all,
    >
    > Sorry if this has been posted before, but I had a quick search and
    > couldn't find any reference.
    >
    > Picture this : I have loads of experience in IT and took the (relatively
    > unresearched) plunge and headed off to NZ on a 6 month holiday visa,
    > pretty sure I would get myself *some form* of employment. I know the
    > global IT situation is in recession, but I was pretty sure I could get
    > something.
    >
    > Anyway, cut to 5.5 months later - wife and kids have returned home and I
    > am on the final 2 weeks of pleading with agencies.
    >
    > I have found a patently hostile atmosphere over here towards
    > non-working-visa people. This is totally at odds with the NZIS OSL and
    > PSL schemes which are supposed to provide a fast track to people with
    > demonstrated IT skills.
    >
    > Basically most of the IT ads come with the tag line that you shouldn't
    > expect a reply if you do not possess a visa before applying. There are
    > definite shades of 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish'.
    >
    > While I can understand individual organisations not wanting to run the
    > risk or hassle of providing the paperwork for someone without a visa I
    > find it quite amazing that the agencies basically seem to have an
    > institutionalised approach - they will not facilitate people looking to
    > use the NZIS OSL and PSL route.
    >
    > Anyway, this might sound like sour grapes and to a degree it is, but I
    > just think it is only fair to point out to people (over 30) hoping to
    > move to NZ via the holiday visa followed by a job visa route that this
    > to all intents and purposes seems to be a non-runner.
    >
    > Or maybe someone can give some hints on how to overcome this problem.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > z

frustrated

On 5 Apr 2003 06:21:09 GMT, ptlabs wrote:
    > If you did some research in the labour laws of your own country
    > (assuming you're from the UK, EU, US, Canada, Japan, South Korea
^^^^^^
Isn't the UK supposed to be part of the EU? ;-)

Cath

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003 03:52:05 +0000, zag
wrote:

[msge snipped]
    >Hi all,
    >Sorry if this has been posted before, but I had a quick search and
    >couldn't find any reference.
    >Picture this : I have loads of experience in IT and took the (relatively
    >unresearched) plunge and headed off to NZ on a 6 month holiday visa,
    >pretty sure I would get myself *some form* of employment. I know the
    >global IT situation is in recession, but I was pretty sure I could get
    >something.

In 1992, [yes 1992], my cousin took a month off work, returned to NZ
from the US to visit family and suss out the job market.

Throughout her country wide visits to agencies etc, she was informed
that maybe one job a year matching her skills became available.

She is still in the US.

As for companies not replying - it is very common and is not a new
thing. I got many 'no replies' when applying for work before I left
in 1992.

It has just taken my son two months to get a job; a recent business
graduate with other diplomas - either he hadn't had the necessary
experience companies required or he was over-qualified. And he is not
utilising many of his skills in his new job.



Cath