ywoods

*puts hand up* that's us

Yvonne

26 days til we leave, 28 til we arrive. WATCH OUT MELBOURNE

pommie bastard

Find it interesting on unemployment you do not quote UK level of 4% nearly half of Australia and the fact USA is on a down turn and Australia acording to the media is booming.Maybe your one eye is clouding over try to dream some more.

Beebee

Thanks Rohan, your comments looked more constructive which lead me to have a better
image about Australia, or Mlebourne. I particularly like your descriptions about
Melbourne, now i can have more things to tell my friends and family. Maybe I just
don't know the facts of Melbourne. Well, keep it coming, guys. I start to like this
place. ... I guess, but still need more time to explore ...


"Rohan Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:74%[email protected]
t.au...
    > Beebee comments are below:
    > "BeeBee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Rohan,
    > >
    > > Your comment is always welcomed. Couple thing:
    > >
    > > they are 2 different magazines: "US News" and "Asia Weeks"
    > >
    > > 1) I need to admit that the living encironment in Hong Kong is not good.
    > In
    > > fact, it is bad and I don't like it as well (That's also one major
factor
    > > why people want to move to other places) However, in terms of business
    > > environment, it is excellent and the competitive advantage is so
    > attractive,
    > > e.g. very low tax rate and the free trade policies, which I guess is far better
    > > than AU.
    > ** I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. HK is a very attractive
place
    > to sell goods and services becasue it has very low tax rates and low to
zero
    > tariffs on goods. To attract business to HK it was essential to have this
    > framework, as competition for business in SE ASIA is fearce. It has very
low
    > tariffs, becuase a very low % of GDP comes from manufactured product. So there are
    > relatively few industries to protect. The corporate taxe rates
are
    > low as well. However the money collected from such taxes goes to public services,
    > health care, welfare etc. I'm sure the poor and desperate people
I
    > have seen in HK are not concerned about the business environment when they like so
    > many others do not have the basic necessities of life.
    > In fact, there is 7 million living in Hong Kong, such a
    > > small place, which provides an exellent environment doing business. As
    > you
    > > said, Hong Kong cannot even fit into a corner of Melbourne. But look at what
    > > this place has achieved, it is somehow a miracle. I don't see your point why you
    > > said "there's a long way to go". This I can't accept at
    > all.
    > > Just because this is an Australian newsgroup will definitely not able to persuade
    > > me to compromise. From my point of view, there's no doubts
that
    > > Hong Kong is an international city. In AU, Sydney can claim as one as
    > well,
    > > but I don't think other cities, including Melbourne are, at least not in
    > the
    > > first tier.
    > ** Hk is a miracle, and the place is definitely marching forward. My
comment
    > about HK having a long way to go is in terms of equality and living standards. Not
    > so much in business, where they are right up there (I am always impressed by how
    > well I am treated when I visit). Melbourne as a city might not be New York, but I
    > disagree about it not
being
    > an international city. Melbourne is home to 7 of Australia's top 10 companies. It
    > is home to the world's largest Mining company, and 2 of the world's top 10 banks, 1
    > of which is in the top 5. It is also home to the largest and most advanced
    > biotechnology R&D centres, as well as some of
the
    > best medical and cancer insitutes in the world. The CSIRO in Melbourne has the
    > Lion's share of the 50,000 highly qualified scientists working on
areas
    > from agriculture to micro chip design. (It may interest you to know that
the
    > CSIRO scientists built the 2nd electronic computer ever made all from
parts
    > made in Australia, and it still runs!). The city has one of the most
modern
    > and largest Museums in the world. The National Gallery of Victoria has the world's
    > third largest collection of European Masterpieces, and one of the largest art
    > collections in the world. As a sporting city, Melbourne is
right
    > up there. We have one of the top 3 horse races in the world, we have one
of
    > the 4 tennis Grand Slams, one of the top 5 largest Stadia in the world,
and
    > the 3rd largest stadia with a retractable roof. We have held the Olympic Games. We
    > have 2 of the top 10 most regarded golf courses in the world. We have a formula 1
    > Grand Prix, and Phillip Island has the MotorCycle Formula Grand Prix. Melbourne was
    > also voted by an independant panel of judges for
6
    > years in a row to be the world's most liveable city with a population over
3
    > million people!
    > Well, many people in HK like to work there and come to enjoy
    > > life here in AU because we do can make good money in HK (at least my friends). I
    > > made $6000 a month when i was 24, as a Network Engineer.
    > This
    > > is common, but I don't think this will be the case here.
    > **There are jobs like that in Australia but, I guarantee not as many. However, one
    > of my good friends works for Cisco at their Asia-Pacific headquarters (not in HK,
    > but Sydney), and earns AUD$34,000 a month.
    > >
    > > 2) Honestly, i never see "Seeing lepers begging for food"; Begging for
    > food,
    > > come on. When was your last visit? 50 years ago?
    > **Try Kowloon 4 months ago, and HK island about 10 months ago.
    > >
    > > 2) There are always good and bad people in every country. That I don't
    > have
    > > any doubts.
    > **I agree
    > >
    > > 2) I apologize for the statement " there're no hopes in Australia"
    > **Apology accepted
    > >
    > > 3) Well, for companies, T1 is not surprising.
    > **Yes but we employ only 9 people!!!
    > However, for the general
    > > public, the fee is so high that I don't think lots of people are willing
    > to
    > > pay for that, compared to the salary they earned and the high tax they
    > need
    > > to pay, which leads to an obstacle to prevent the HI-Tech industry from growing.
    > > I don't know the figure of Australia, but in HK, there are
more
    > > than 100 million people using broadband, paying the max $50 a month (the lower is
    > > only $20 a month), unlimited download and there are more than
15
    > > companies you can choose from.
    > ** 100 million in HK using broadband, find that hard to believe with only
7
    > million However I do know from experience it is cheap and you have great choice in
    > HK. However quanitity does not always equate to quality. From experience I have
    > found that I get consistently better and faster connections to the internet (better
    > download speeds) from the US (where 90% of the internet
is
    > anyway) in Australia than HK.
    > > 4) In terms of education. Well, that is my personal view and again
based
    > on
    > > the facts. You can sure check other materials and see the position for
    > the
    > > 1st Australia university on the list. I am sure you will be in shock.
If
    > > you do a little research, you will see Hk university is in a higher than
    > the
    > > 1st Australia univeristy.
    > ** I will take your word for it as I can't find those publications on the internet.
    > Agin, there are always good and bad, that I have
    > > no doubts at all.i do agree your point "the ability of someone to teach
is
    > > not governed by whether or not they are professors or just lecturers".
    > But
    > > first, in fact, they are, from my views, less qualified, maybe i just
have
    > > all the bad teachers. Second, the achievement and qualification they
have
    > > is one of the good evidence for the students to judge them. By the way, have you
    > > seen that the libraries in the famous university in Australia
    > have
    > > no recent books at all, I have. the most recent one about Linux is from 1999, as
    > > a example.
    > ** I find that strange about the libraries, but not hard to believe. Your frame of
    > reference is IT and I understand that there are some IT courses that are
    > underfunded because the salaries for lecturers are poor compared
to
    > industry. My degree was in Engineering, and I had the chance to use the CSIRO
    > materials library (3rd largest in the world).
    > >
    > > Again, I value your comments and I guess everyone does. We are living
in
    > > different countries and growth in different backgrounds as well, so we
    > have
    > > different values, but I hope the discussion can be more positive.
Again,
    > I
    > > do doubt whether "There are people all over the world who would sell their
    > > mothers to come here", depends on
what
    > > do you mean "all over the world" and the size of teh group of people.
    > **There are because we have over 10,000 people in detention centres, more than
    > 90% of them are illegal arrivals via boats. Only a fraction would qualify for
    > asylum status.
    > [email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:3d5f81f1$0$31145-
    > > [email protected]    ...
    > > > BeeBee,
    > > >
    > > > Firstly, I have never heard of "US News and Asia Weeks", and I find
that
    > > > doubtful about 3 universities in HK better. You complain about being charged
    > > > for this and that, yet you say that
    > going
    > > > to the US or the UK is too expensive. You are complaining about either
    > > > scenario...you seem very bitter. Secondly, your comments about not learning
    > > > anything are defeatist and egotistical. I again doubt that statement. Having
    > > > said that though I
am
    > > > upset about what I perceive as falling standards at Australian
    > > Universities,
    > > > I blame this on the current Government withdrawing money from the
higher
    > > Ed
    > > > sector. This is short-sighted. Thirdly, the UN findings are published every
    > > > year, by an independent
    > panel
    > > > of experts, based on facts. So I would be more inclined to believe
that
    > > than
    > > > any one person's opinion. However having said that I was shocked at
how
    > > high
    > > > Hong Kong was on the list. I have been to HK many times for business,
    > and
    > > > the place still has a long way to go. Walking in the streets I was
    > struck
    > > by
    > > > the amount of rubbish in the dirty streets. The appalling smell of
    > rotting
    > > > food, and human "waste". Seeing lepers begging for food. The poor
    > quality
    > > of
    > > > food (especially meat) and water, the choking haze of pollution from millions
    > > > of people crammed into an area that would fit into a corner
of
    > > > Melbourne. The dehumanising high rise jungle where noone has a garden,
    > or
    > > > any space. As far as infrastructure in IT was concerned, not being
able
    > to
    > > > get emails from a local mirror of WorldCom (before they went bust) for
a
    > > > week! because the servers were down??? or congested was beyond belief. Doing
    > > > business with people in Engineering, who were tertiary and postgraduate
    > > > qualified in HK universities, who didn't even know, let
    > alone
    > > > understand basic concepts. They had zero practical application
    > experience,
    > > > and could not solve basic problems. I have experienced this time after
    > > time
    > > > after time. My experiences of HK and its people are sadly.....very
poor.
    > > >
    > > > Fourthly, broadband is available through 90% of Australian telephone exchanges
    > > > via ADSL, and the availability of cable (I have cable at
home,
    > > and
    > > > my work has a T1). I do concede that it is expensive compared to the
US
    > or
    > > > probably HK. That is due to the tyranny of distance, massive country
and
    > > > relatively small population.
    > > >
    > > > Fifthly, the ability of someone to teach is not governed by whether or
    > not
    > > > they are professors or just lecturers. I do not believe they need to
    > bring
    > > > in more people just better organise the current system and fund it
    > better.
    > > > When I did my honours degree in engineering we had 3 exchange students
    > in
    > > my
    > > > small course (24 students, 1 from the US, 1 from the UK and 1 from
    > > Germany).
    > > > The guy from the US said he had never worked so hard in all his life
and
    > > > that his University in the States was much "Easier". He came from Penn
    > > State
    > > > considered the best in Engineering in the US. The Lady from the UK
said
    > > that
    > > > it was similar to home except there were more contact hours, and our
    > > friend
    > > > from Germany stated that things were very different except the
workload
    > > was
    > > > similar.
    > > >
    > > > My experiences differ vastly from yours! Telling people there are no
    > hopes
    > > > in Australia is nonsense, and you should be ashamed. There are people
    > all
    > > > over the world who would sell their mothers to come here
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "BeeBee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > > Rohan,
    > > > >
    > > > > It is good to hear your comments. Couple things that I need to
    > clarify:
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > 1) According to the US News and Asia Weeks, there are at least 3 universities
    > > > > in Hong Kong rank better than the No. 1 Australia
    > > university.
    > > > > You just don't understand. The reason why there are so many
students
    > > > coming
    > > > > oversees like Singapore, Hong Kong, China .... It is not because
there
    > > are
    > > > > no good universities in their places, but it is because the standard
    > is
    > > > too
    > > > > high and very competitive that we can't get in. Australia is a good
    > > > choice
    > > > > because we can get in to the universities here without big efforts
and
    > > > > outstanding academic records. In addition, most of the people
prefer
    > to
    > > > go
    > > > > US and England, but it is just too expensive over there. In Hong
    > Kong,
    > > if
    > > > > you are holding a degree from AU, particularly undergraduate, it is
    > nit
    > > > easy
    > > > > to find a job, compared to other oversee qualification like the US
and
    > > the
    > > > > UN...it is lesser value.
    > > > >
    > > > > 2) For me, I just treated this one year as a long vacation. i don't
    > > > expect
    > > > > I can really learn many stuff anyway in th euniversity, but the
    > standard
    > > > is
    > > > > again, far below that what I expected. They just charge you this,
    > > charge
    > > > > you that...
    > > > >
    > > > > 3) UN's 2002 findings - Sorry I did not read this, but somwhow when
it
    > > > comes
    > > > > to the issue to measure the performance of a whole country, I
    > personally
    > > > > don't believe it and I rather believe in what I see ...
    > > > >
    > > > > 4) Final comments: a) I used modem connection when i did my
    > > undergraduate
    > > > > degree in US 10 years ago, and I had been using broadband connection
    > in
    > > > Hong
    > > > > Kong for 3 years (price is much cheaper here), i can't imaigne I
still
    > > > need
    > > > > to use the modem again and paying $20 for that. b) I never expect
    > there
    > > > are
    > > > > 2 exact same subjects and same professors and same materials (well,
    > many
    > > > of
    > > > > the techers are only lectures, not even professors) offered for both
    > the
    > > > > undergraduate and post-graduate, but i see this in Australia ...
This
    > is
    > > > how
    > > > > they grab your money. c) The good thing about the universities is
that
    > > > they
    > > > > really know how to advertise themselves in other countries and spend
    > > much
    > > > > money in it without thinking improving the resources for the
students.
    > > d)
    > > > > There are, of course, still oppotunities. they must bring in more
    > > people
    > > > to
    > > > > this place.
    > > > >
    > > > > Thanks.
    > > > >
    > > > > "Rohan Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:3d5f1ace$0$31144$afc38c87-
    > > > > @news.optusnet.com.au    ...
    > > > > > Really BeeBee,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > You are deluding yourself. Australia may not have choking
polution,
    > > > > > overcrowding, human "refuse"in the streets, appalling inequality
or
    > > > lepors
    > > > > > begging for food, but then again we are "far behind Hong Kong". As
    > far
    > > > as
    > > > > > technology, telephone networks or standards of living and
    > > > infrastructure,
    > > > > > why don't you check out either the UN's 2002 findings on standards
    > of
    > > > > living
    > > > > > or the world competitiveness index. Australia ranks 5th out of 180
    > > > > countries
    > > > > > for standards of living and infrastructure, ahead of the US and
Hong
    > > > Kong.
    > > > > > As far as your comments about education...how good is Hong Kong if
    > you
    > > > > have
    > > > > > to go abroad for an education? You need a healthy dose of
    > perspective
    > > > > >
    > > > > > "BeeBee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > > > > Duncan, i totally agree with what you said. Australia
definitely
    > > > > > definitely
    > > > > > > is not a good place. I am actually from Hong Kong, and I lived
in
    > > > > America
    > > > > > > for 7 years. I decided to give myself a break, so I quited my
job
    > > and
    > > > > > came
    > > > > > > to melbourne for a master degree. Well, this is all a joke. I
    > > never
    > > > > come
    > > > > > > to Australia and I thought it should be a good place. I was so
    > damn
    > > > > > > disappointed after i arrived. The general standard is far
behind
    > > Hong
    > > > > > Kong
    > > > > > > and of course the US.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I attended the so-called "the best" university in Melbourne or
    > even
    > > > > > > Australia. Well, it is another joke. The school is not
organized
    > > and
    > > > > > > unqualified. They just try to grab your moeny and use it to
    > promote
    > > > the
    > > > > > > university. I discussed with various students from US and we
all
    > > > agreed
    > > > > > > this is totally under-qualified. the state university I
attended
    > in
    > > > the
    > > > > > > states was far better than this one. Anyway, this is the worst
    > > > decision
    > > > > I
    > > > > > > 've made so far in my life.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > For me, an outsider's point of view, there are no hopes in
    > > Australia.
    > > > > > There
    > > > > > > are many better places in the world you can stay. Really think
    > > twice
    > > > > > before
    > > > > > > you make teh decision. 20 million people ... what can you do???
    > I
    > > am
    > > > a
    > > > > > IT
    > > > > > > professional as well. I think the telephone and the network
    > > > > infrastructure
    > > > > > > is sick. The thing I really can't accept is that many
Australian
    > > > still
    > > > > > > think that they are smart and high-standard, compared to the
rest
    > of
    > > > the
    > > > > > > world. Well, it's up to you...
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > "andre duncam" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:b58fa2f9.0208170334.-
    > > > > > > [email protected]    ...
    > > > > > > > Hi EveryOne
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I went through some of the emails ob this newsgroups, and I
have
    > > > > > > > sensed what I went through when I was in Autralia. For the people who
    > are
    > > > > > > > dreaming about the sunny and warm beaches during the cold and dark
winter
    > > > > > > > nights in UK or elsewhere, I advise to think twice before making the
    > > > mistake
    > > > > > > > of their life. No all that glitter is gold, Australia is worth a visit
    > but
    > > > not
    > > > > > > > making it a permanent home. The country is lagging behind Europe in
    > every
    > > > > > > > important term. Economically, Australia will not make true your dreams
as
    > > you
    > > > > > > > expect. No jobs and no prospect, it might the future Argentina in the
    > > > future.
    > > > > > > > Ask yourselves, why Aussies are leaving their Australian
    > paradise
    > > > for
    > > > > > > > other parts of the world. Whereever you go, you find aussies in
Europe
    > > > > > > > looking for a loaf of bread to earn, becauser simply there are no jobs
over
    > > > there
    > > > > > > > (in OZ). In London alone, there are about 250 000 of them
    > > > > > > > (www.aussieinlondon.com) ,
    > > > > > > > coming to look for jobs and secure
    > some
    > > > > > > > pounds. I worked in many companies, and in all of them you
    > > encounter
    > > > > > > > Aussies. I visit many European countries, and in all of them
you
    > > see
    > > > > > > > Aussies pubs. I visited California, and in many Americans,
there
    > > are
    > > > > > > > Aussies working over there, some jobs include washing dishes.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Economically, Australia will not offer the kinf of rosy
prospect
    > > > your
    > > > > > > > looking for. Aussies are smart in marketing the image of their country
    > > > through
    > > > > > > > beaches and so on. I will not make the mistake of sacrificing my
future
    > as
    > > > the
    > > > > > > > expense of swimming in the gold coast. I make enough money in Europe
to
    > > > > > > > choose from different great destination, but still keeping my job and
living
    > > in
    > > > > > > > Europe. I spent 3 months and finally came to my senses and decided to
    > come
    > > > > > > > back to Europe where life really matters, I felt exiled over there,
    > trying
    > > > > > > > hard to secure an IT job (Java developer) at puny and meager salary,
it
    > is
    > > > > > > > indeed a heavy price to pay for seeking sunny weather and good beaches.
    > > > > > > > Simply, they are no jobs over there and the people are second-hand
    > > > > > > > class and
    > pretty
    > > > > > > > conservative. I am not the only one who decided to come back to Europe,
    > > > > > > > many
    > did
    > > > > > > > again. Actually, they are many Aussies who are leaving the country
for
    > > > good.
    > > > > > > > I love it here in Europoe, at least and I am economically safe
    > and
    > > > my
    > > > > > > > kids future is rosier them in Brisbane or Sydney.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Duncan
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > >

willywh3r3

Could you care to cut the old post? It is a good practice to limit your post only to what you are interested to reply. And it is unecessary to QUOTE the everything in the old posts.

I see 7 posts deep in your latest post.

Thanks
Wil

willywh3r3

Would you like to share with us, which part of Melbourne you stay? Is it a good neighborhood to stay?

Thanks
Wil

pommie bastard

Just read in local paper that more money is to be spent on Education in order to break the welfare cycle.Where could that be the UK in the 80's not try again the land of plenty.
Youth unemployment here is worse than UK ,a lot of kids leave at 15 with no school or any other quatifications at all.
Then again who needs work being a surf bum far better , and bring in more skilled workers to do the dirty jobs Ausssies dont want.

Rob

In <[email protected]> willywh3r3 wrote:
    > Originally posted by Beebee:
    >> > > > > > > > kids future is rosier them in Brisbane or Sydney.
    > Could you care to cut the old post? It is a good practice to limit your post only
    > to what you are interested to reply. And it is unecessary to QUOTE the everything
    > in the old posts.
    > I see 7 posts deep in your latest post.

Don't forget, he can't find the high-tech tools to do such stuff in Oz. Once he gets
back to HK he'll have access to the latest newsreader with "cut'n'paste" technology.

;-)

Robert Edwards

lol "rob" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In <[email protected]> willywh3r3 wrote:

    > Don't forget, he can't find the high-tech tools to do such stuff in Oz. Once he
    > gets back to HK he'll have access to the latest newsreader with "cut'n'paste"
    > technology.
    > ;-)

willywh3r3

You remind me when I used tin in unix. It must be fun to use it to read britishexpats forum.

mxqth

"** 100 million in HK using broadband, find that hard to believe with only 7
million However I do know from experience it is cheap and you have great choice in
HK. However quanitity does not always equate to quality. From experience I have
found that I get consistently better and faster connections to the internet
(better download speeds) from the US (where 90% of the internet is anyway) in
Australia than HK."

spoke with a Romanian hacker a while ago, he said to me that when they want to flood something they usually hack high speed servers from HK and Japan. when I asked him why are they doing that he said "they have the latest technology and the poorest protection".....
(mind out the moral aspect)

Chris

"jery_wang" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Any Aussies care to comment on this? This sounds no good for Asians who are
    > thinking to go to Australia. Are Asians (legal immigrant) welcomed in Australia?

Fiance is Japanese and loves it here. Hasn't had any trouble to speak of. On the
other hand, try being a white guy in Asia if you want to know about discrimination.

    > I read many stories that Asian gangsters are ruling the inner city in Sydney. What
    > is your attitude on this issue? Do you regard as Australian society problem or
    > 'Asian' problem?

Vietnamese and Lebanese gangs cause most of the trouble. It doesn't really matter
what people think of it, but at this point in time, these two groups seem to have
young people who are winding up with the wrong crowd. It is not an Asian problem...
it's an organised crime problem.

Chris

Rob

In <[email protected]> pommie bastard wrote:
    > Just read in local paper that more money is to be spent on Education in order to
    > break the welfare cycle.Where could that be the UK in the 80's not try again the
    > land of plenty.

Certainly not 80s UK. 2002 maybe..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi-
/uk_politics/2127292.stm

Petecito

I don't remember the UK unemployment rate. That's impressive.

I also didn't quote the Dutch or Venezuelan unemployment rate.

What do you think I'm dreaming of ? I just present facts and questions.

"pommie bastard" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    |
    | Find it interesting on uneployment you do not quote UK level of 4% nearly half
    | of Australia and the fact USA is on a down turn and Australia acording to the
    | media is booming.Maybe your one eye is clouding over try to dream some
    | more.
    |
    | --
    | Posted via http://britishexpats.com
    |

Graham

NickyTurner <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Anyway, who gives a shit about tv and IT when the sun is shining[ and there's
    > another bbq to have!!

That should be the national motto :-)
--
Even Sainsburys have refused to give Steve Bruce a loyalty card.

mail at mistfall dot com

Beebee

If your intention was just making it as a joke, thanks. That is a good one and I
will certainly laugh. But if you were just trying to insult me, I sincerely hope
that you take it back. i do like to see the discussion to be more contructive and
pure discussion ONLY. Thanks.

    > > Could you care to cut the old post? It is a good practice to limit your post only
    > > to what you are interested to reply. And it is unecessary to QUOTE the everything
    > > in the old posts.
    > >
    > > I see 7 posts deep in your latest post.
    > Don't forget, he can't find the high-tech tools to do such stuff in Oz. Once he
    > gets back to HK he'll have access to the latest newsreader with "cut'n'paste"
    > technology.
    > ;-)