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What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Old Apr 7th 2014, 2:46 pm
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Default What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Hi everyone,

My partner and I spent 10 months living and working in NZ on a working holiday visa as part of our round the world backpacking trip and loved it so much that we now want to move back there permanently. We are currently living back in England.

We're 26/27 and my boyfriend has been in I.T. since leaving college and had some good work experience working in Wellington whilst we were there. He has the skills and qualifications to apply for the Skilled Migrant Category and I could come with him as his partner as I'm just in admin so can't really get any points myself. We're not married and we don't have any children.

We just about have enough points to have our EOI automatically selected from the pool without a job offer (we haven't submitted it yet) but know that once we are invited to apply for a visa we have a time limit to submit our visa application. From all the research I've done it sounds like if we submit the actual visa application without a job offer then we will be thrown to the bottom of the pile and there's no knowing how long the queue is to be granted the job search visa to enter NZ and find skilled employment from an accredited employer to continue the residency application.

He is currently trying to find a job offer from an accredited employer but it is proving quite difficult despite the constant claim that employers are desperate for I.T. people! He got a response about one job but they said they'd expect him to be there in a month to start work but obviously the visa can't get processed in that time!

It seems that to be granted a visa you need a job offer, but to get a job offer they want you to have a visa! Am I crazy or is this a serious flaw in the system?!

We're really not sure what to do, I've been trying to find as much info as possible and have read the pages on the gov website inside out - I need help from people who have actually done this!

We were considering to submit the EOI without a job offer, and then get the medicals, police checks and documents all together and hope that he can get an offer of employment before the deadline and then get the visa processed in time but there are so many things that could get delayed or go wrong I'm not sure we could get the timing right.

If we submit the application without a job offer we would be afraid of being forgotten about and waiting a seriously long time before being considered for approval or even them saying no, in which case we would have wasted a great deal of time and money.

We have focused on the Skilled Migrant Category visa because it seems to be the only one that can get me in with him as his partner.

If anyone can give me any advice I would very much appreciate it. Sorry for writing a bit of an essay, just trying to give the details so it makes sense!

Jenny x
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Old Apr 7th 2014, 5:17 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Originally Posted by Jenpen17 View Post
Hi everyone,

My partner and I spent 10 months living and working in NZ on a working holiday visa as part of our round the world backpacking trip and loved it so much that we now want to move back there permanently. We are currently living back in England.

We're 26/27 and my boyfriend has been in I.T. since leaving college and had some good work experience working in Wellington whilst we were there. He has the skills and qualifications to apply for the Skilled Migrant Category and I could come with him as his partner as I'm just in admin so can't really get any points myself. We're not married and we don't have any children.

We just about have enough points to have our EOI automatically selected from the pool without a job offer (we haven't submitted it yet) but know that once we are invited to apply for a visa we have a time limit to submit our visa application. From all the research I've done it sounds like if we submit the actual visa application without a job offer then we will be thrown to the bottom of the pile and there's no knowing how long the queue is to be granted the job search visa to enter NZ and find skilled employment from an accredited employer to continue the residency application.

He is currently trying to find a job offer from an accredited employer but it is proving quite difficult despite the constant claim that employers are desperate for I.T. people! He got a response about one job but they said they'd expect him to be there in a month to start work but obviously the visa can't get processed in that time!

It seems that to be granted a visa you need a job offer, but to get a job offer they want you to have a visa! Am I crazy or is this a serious flaw in the system?!

We're really not sure what to do, I've been trying to find as much info as possible and have read the pages on the gov website inside out - I need help from people who have actually done this!

We were considering to submit the EOI without a job offer, and then get the medicals, police checks and documents all together and hope that he can get an offer of employment before the deadline and then get the visa processed in time but there are so many things that could get delayed or go wrong I'm not sure we could get the timing right.

If we submit the application without a job offer we would be afraid of being forgotten about and waiting a seriously long time before being considered for approval or even them saying no, in which case we would have wasted a great deal of time and money.

We have focused on the Skilled Migrant Category visa because it seems to be the only one that can get me in with him as his partner.

If anyone can give me any advice I would very much appreciate it. Sorry for writing a bit of an essay, just trying to give the details so it makes sense!

Jenny x
Hi,

Yes you're experiencing the classic immigration catch 22!

In your position it isn't really necessary to go for the Resident Visa's straight off just so you also get in with your partner as a secondary applicant.
There are other ways.
Since you can prove you meet the necessary relationship requirement for the Resident Visa (been together in each other's pockets for more than 12 months) then you'll also meet the same requirement for other visa's.

If your partner can get a job offer, like you say - even if they want him here sharpish, then all he needs to do is accept it on the basis that he will get here as soon as possible. If the employer then agrees and offers a contract, all your partner needs to do is apply for a Temporary Working Visa.
If you both have all your paperwork etc in place these can be granted in a week and only come with having a job offer. The job and employer become conditions on the visa.
The period that can be given is up to 30 months and you must travel over and activate it within 3 months of it being granted....so as you see it allows a person to be here quickly.
As his partner you (at the same time) apply for a Partnership temporary working visa to match the period of his. You personally don't need a job offer and you don't actually need to work and it is granted on the basis that your partner has a temporary work visa with a guaranteed job offer.
So at this point you will both have Temporary working visas with maybe 30 months length.

You can also have these visas whilst your Residency application is ticking away in the background and if you file EOI in England then once you migrate on the temporary work visas just transfer the Residency application to an immigration office in NZ for them to deal with.

Lots of people do it this way.
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Old Apr 7th 2014, 8:05 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

if you have over the 140 submit the EOI, once you have a job offer then you can update the appliction and it will move up, but even with a job offer it can take 3mths to process. if a job offer comes in OH can get a temp work visa and you can come over on a visitors visa until the ITA has been completed, you won't be able to work on visitors visa though.
I personally would not transfer from UK to NZ as their time lines are longer and if you have all the paperwork it shouldn't be a problem. Once it has been approved then get it transferred so NZ Immigration can do the stickers in the passport.

Good luck
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Old Apr 7th 2014, 10:32 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Hi Jenpen!

You have basically just written my story! My partner and I came to NZ after a year out backpacking, loved it and now living here. My partner is also an IT guy. We went back to the UK before moving back out to NZ.

The way we did it was to get a job with a company on the accredited employers list so that my partner could apply for a Work to Residence visa with me as a partner on this visa. A WTR visa takes about 2 weeks to process. As you have mentioned they want you in NZ pretty sharpish to start the job. It was the same with us. My partner got the job offer and they asked him to start about one month after but he managed to negotiate a start date 6 weeks after getting the job offer. The flights were horrendously expensive, it was a big rush, stressful, crazy but also exciting and has turned out to be the best decision we made (apart from going backpacking ) We have been here for just over one year now and have now become permanent residents though the SMC.

It is very confusing - job offer first or visa? The thing we found is that a lot of companies who are not on the accredited employers list have no idea about immigration or visas. If you are not in NZ with a valid work permit/visa then they are not interested. Our plan B if we didn't get a job offer before getting to NZ was to move out anyway without a job offer (having saved enough money) and look when we arrived whilst giving ourselves a 3 month time limit. We were getting close to plan B until a job popped up on SEEK with a company on the accredited employers list that my partner was successful in getting

My only suggestion would be to keep applying to the accredited employers so that you can get the WTR visa. If you are not getting anywhere then perhaps it could be worth you coming out without a job and seeing if you have any luck that way. That of course comes with its risks but as long as you have the funds to support yourselves and set a time limit then you should be OK.

Good luck! It can be done! Any more questions fire away...
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Old Apr 8th 2014, 10:22 am
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Thank you so much for all this advice guys, it's great! Pom_Chch I'm so glad to hear that you were in exactly the same situation as us and it all worked out for you - that gives me great hope!

Although I'm a little confused because I didn't think you could bring in a partner on a Work to Residency Visa? Or did you apply for the Partnership Temporary work visa alongside it and then switch to the Skilled Migrant Category to get residency for both of you once you were actually in NZ?

My boyfriend has a contact who he worked with in Wellington that wants him to come and work for him, but his company is not on the accredited employers list. As you say Pom_Chch, it seems if they're not on the list then they really don't know much about immigration and visas! From all my understandings, he'd need to become an accredited employer for this to actually work for us. I don't think he understands that it's a huge deal for him to go through and it doesn't seem like he has seriously looked into the requirements and obligations from his end yet my boyfriend is sort of clinging on to this hope as it's the only sort of prospect he has at this very moment in time and he knows the guy well and would really enjoy the role.

Escapedtonz, does the job offer for a temporary work visa have to be from an accredited employer?

Jenny x
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Old Apr 8th 2014, 6:00 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Hi there,
Going to add some thoughts to this.
When you say enough points, do you have 140 or more? That would guarantee selection and you could gain residency without needing a job offer. Obviously it will take longer to go through.
You could submit the EOI and wait, if you get a job offer whilst that is running through then contact INZ and they will speed things up or you go for some other visa to get you started when the employer wants you.

You say your partner works in IT. Does he fulfill the requirements on the long term skills shortage list? Check column 4 on the list.
If he does come under this then there is a LTSSL WTR visa as well. That does not need to be an accredited employer. It also means he would be able to easily get an Essential Skills work visa-also to tide him over whilst residency runs along in the background.
There are two WTR streams that are relevant to 'normal' job hunters talent (accredited employer) and LTSSL.

You could submit an EOI and let that get going and then apply for a work or WTR visa if necessary
Or, go straight for WTR and go for residency in two years...

So, check the LTSSL and get back to us. Also how many points have you actually got? That's quite a high total, it may be fine but maybe recheck it just to be sure.
Waiting for a plane so not the best place to go into more details
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Old Apr 8th 2014, 6:24 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Ok, let me see if I've got this right...

If my partners contact offers him a role on the Long Term Skill Shortage List (which I'm certain my partner qualifies for) then he doesn't have to go through the process of becoming an accredited employer?

And then my partner can apply for the LTSSL Work to Residency Visa? And I can get the Partnership Temporary Work Visa on the basis that he holds a work visa?

And then after two years he can apply for residency and include me on his application so that we both get residency? And the employer still doesn't need to be accredited?

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Old Apr 8th 2014, 6:43 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

In a nutshell, yes
I might have to rush off leaving this half done but I'll see what happens.

Your options for visas:
1. apply for residency via the EOI, assuming you do have over 140 pts which guarantees selection. You would have a long wait but should get residency without a job offer. And can update INZ if you do get a job offer. If you have lived together for at least 12 m then you go as a partner

2. WTR - there are two relevant types:

-Talent accredited employer : the salary is >55,000 for a 40hr week, and
-LTSSL : the applicant must fulfill the requirements on the LTSSL . No salary requirements though and the employer does not have to be accredited. Obviously the job offer and your partners skills must match those on the LTSSL

You apply for a temp visa under partnership for either of these.

3. Essential skills work visas: temporary and do not lead to residency,. However can be used to start work sooner if the SMC is taking too long. If he is on the LTSSL then no problems with getting a visa

I saw that no one had brought up the LTSSL aspect and it is important as it opens up just about all employers and options for him.

Sorry this is brief but they keep changing gates and my plane is due to leave soon. So it might seem rushed. Please come back and ask further questions if it doesn't make as much sense as I'd like it to
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Old Apr 10th 2014, 8:08 am
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Ok I think we have a slight hiccup with the Long Term Skills Shortage List... My boyfriend studied at college and obtained 2 diplomas in ICT and has worked in occupations that are mentioned on the list for 7+ years - BUT he technically doesn't have a Bachelor degree of any kind.

On the actual LTSSL it says must be in one of these occupations and must hold one of these qualifications, all of which are Bachelor degrees of some kind, nothing lower. But in any text about the LTSSL on the website all it mentions is the occupation, so is the qualification absolutely necessary?

ICT is the sort of industry where you don't absolutely have to have a degree in order to do the job; you can often just work your way up, which is exactly what my partner has done.

I can't seem to find any free information on this subject. Does he qualify for the LTSSL or not?!

Thank you so much for all this advice guys, it's really very helpful! Persephone I hope you had a good flight!
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Old Apr 11th 2014, 5:38 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Thanks, yes, it was a good flight

Generally you need the exact requirements mentioned on the LTSSL to apply.
This is what the operations manual has to say on LTSSL WTR visas:
To be granted a visa under the Long Term Skill Shortage List Work Instructions applicants must:
a. hold an offer of employment in an occupation that is included on the Long Term Skill Shortage List (LTSSL) at the time that their application is made and that meets the specifications for that occupation; and
b. be suitably qualified by training and/or experience to undertake the offer of employment (including any specific requirements set out on the LTSSL); and
c. meet the health and character requirements for Residence set out at A4 and A5.15 to A5.25; and
d. meet the requirements for bona fide applicants as set out at E5; and
e. meet the requirements for lodging an application as set out in WR3.15.
This is the ANZSCO classification for ICT professionals:
Most occupations in this sub-major group have a level of skill commensurate with a bachelor degree or higher qualification. At least five years of relevant experience and/or relevant vendor certification may substitute for the formal qualification. In some instances relevant experience and/or on-the-job training may be required in addition to the formal qualification (ANZSCO Skill Level 1).
If he was offered the job you mentioned, would the employer be willing to wait until a SMC application went through? He would have to prove that he was 'skilled' in the job which is where the ANZSCO part comes into it.

A Work Visa application does not have to be from an accredited employer but INZ will perform a labour market test [ie make sure that no NZers are available and can do the job] unless the job is on one of the SSLs.

How many points would you have on an EOI without a job offer?
140 or more= automatic selection. Have you added your total up correctly?

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Old Apr 12th 2014, 7:32 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Ok in that case then it doesn't look like we can use the LTSSL route as he doesn't have a bachelor degree.

We only have 120 points on the EOI without a job offer. We could get an extra 40 points from my partners CISCO qualifications but unfortunately his college never got around to issuing him the hard copies of his certificates and stupidly he never chased them up about it. Now the college don't have his exams on record any more and there is no way of getting hold of them to prove to immigration that he has these qualifications, other than a statement from his old college tutor, which I don't think would be enough.

I'm still not sure exactly what we're going to do, but it looks like a job offer from an accredited employer is going to be essential. I think if we get that and then get into the country with temporary work visas then we'll apply for the SMC once we are actually in NZ.

Unless there is anything else to consider?!
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Old May 12th 2014, 9:21 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Hi jempen

its interesting to watch your situation and see how it pans out - we're keen to move but we'll do it the slow way if it means getting there eventually!

Good luck

Last edited by kiwipenguin; May 12th 2014 at 9:33 pm.
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Old May 13th 2014, 8:43 am
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Originally Posted by Jenpen17 View Post

Although I'm a little confused because I didn't think you could bring in a partner on a Work to Residency Visa? Or did you apply for the Partnership Temporary work visa alongside it and then switch to the Skilled Migrant Category to get residency for both of you once you were actually in NZ?


Jenny x
Hi Jenny, my hubby is on a WTR visa, you would get a partnership visa, as I am, it it took us 5 days from submitting to receiving back the passports

Good luck
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Old May 13th 2014, 7:08 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Originally Posted by Jenpen17 View Post
Ok in that case then it doesn't look like we can use the LTSSL route as he doesn't have a bachelor degree.

We only have 120 points on the EOI without a job offer. We could get an extra 40 points from my partners CISCO qualifications but unfortunately his college never got around to issuing him the hard copies of his certificates and stupidly he never chased them up about it. Now the college don't have his exams on record any more and there is no way of getting hold of them to prove to immigration that he has these qualifications, other than a statement from his old college tutor, which I don't think would be enough.

I'm still not sure exactly what we're going to do, but it looks like a job offer from an accredited employer is going to be essential. I think if we get that and then get into the country with temporary work visas then we'll apply for the SMC once we are actually in NZ.

Unless there is anything else to consider?!
120 points would not get your EOI selected at the moment.
However just to clarify something- you can only claim points for one qualification so proving the CISCO quals wouldn't add any extra points. One qual for the principal candidate which earns 40-60 points and one qual for the partner which earns 10-20 points is all.

So you need a job offer. If the employer is willing to wait then you may be able to apply under the SMC only and it wouldn't have to be an accredited employer. Current London times are around 4 months or so if there are no hiccoughs and you're prepared.

If you find an accredited employer and apply for WTR [which are generally issued very quickly] then you can get residency by going for the SMC at any time or waiting two years and applying for Residence from Work under the WTR visa.

All the best
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Old Jul 8th 2014, 7:19 pm
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Default Re: What comes first: the job offer or the visa?!

Hey folks,

I thought I'd give a little update of where we're at and if anyone has any more suggestions - or reassurance!

We managed to find an extra 5 points bringing our total on the EOI to 125, but this still isn't enough. We thought we could get the bonus points as all of my partners positions and work experience has been within an area of skill shortage but it looks like the bonus points only count alongside a job offer so that was that idea out of the window!

He started applying for jobs about a month ago, and was finding that he had already missed the boat with a lot of them so hopefully there has been a turn over now and he will start getting some responses soon.

He had a phone call from a guy from a recruitment company who basically told him that no employer would ever give someone a permanent job offer to come over on a temporary visa, even though we have every intention of getting residency as soon as we get there. His advice was to submit our EOI even though we don't have 140 points and don't have a job offer and then when a job offer comes in, phone immigration to update the application so then it will be picked from the pool.

I didn't think this made any sense because if we entered the EOI then we have a 6 month time limit and if that expired we'd lose our money - whereas if we wait for the job offer to come and then immediately submit the EOI then it will be picked and there would be no risk!?!

So after much thought my partner told him that the EOI is ready to be submitted at the click of a button but so as not to risk losing any money, he would rather wait until that job offer came - and he hasn't heard anything from that guy since then, despite sending him a few emails. He had said he was going to put him forward for three roles and that never happened - is this guy just unprofessional or is it because of our visa situation?

We don't want to lie to prospective employers about our visa status (ticking the 'no valid work visa' box doesn't look good!) but it feels like my partners applications may be being tossed aside because he needs a job offer before he can be granted a visa.

Surely this is how it works though?! I'm completely baffled by how this system works and the employers attitudes to it!

We had a kiwi contact look over, give notes, and then approve my partners CV so we know it's the best it can be; the fact that we lived in NZ for a year proves we can settle and this is definitely where we want to live; the fact that my partner has had work experience in some of the top companies in Wellington (Xero and Todd Corporation) can only be a good thing... so someone please tell me that we can make this happen?!?

I know he hasn't been looking for a long time but it just feels like time is slipping away and I'm losing hope! We're so sick of England now, I don't think I've ever wanted anything so badly in my life than to just get back to NZ!

xXx

P.S. sorry for ranting...!
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