Jason Tomlins

Chris I hear what your saying but I am horrified at your suggestion that canada needs
a 9/11 to make it more patriotic, come on, you didnt mean that did you? I too was
struck by americas self pride when I first came here and thought why cant the UK be
more like that but those feelings wore off pretty rapidly after the 'honeymoon'
period was over and I began feeling the extent at which it was being used. Patriotism
is one thing, modesty is another. You dont need a flag in every flower pot to remind
you who you are and where you are and who you are (the flags and car stickers are
still here chris, I too have seen the 'REAL' America - by road - from US falls in
Niagra to the Grand Canyon and beyond), they are just symbols. Its how you 'feel'. In
Canada I found the lack of flags and the like a relief. I knew I was in Canada, i
didnt need a flag to remind me, and even being a new PR i kinda 'felt' Canadian and
pride for my new country, i didnt need a flag to remind me. 'Hell with
multiculturism', another odd remark. Canada is currently the only country to have
'multiculturism' written into its law. Its what present day canada is made up off.
Throwing all that away leaves what ? What is a true Canadian? An aboriginal is. Are
you living life as they did before european settlers arrived or are you living life
based on some european style ? You can still love your new country but you cant
change your DNA. I'm sure Canadian born Canadians (non aboriginal) are able to trace
their roots back to some foreign land and with pride say 'yeah, i'm from Irish stock'
or whatever. Why is that precluded from immigrants ?

Yes, every Canadian has every reason to be proud of their country and to be loyal and
patriotic to it but lets not go down the american road of taking it to the point of
arrogance.

Jason.



"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > Jason, I have been in Canada for 10 years, immigrant as yourself, and am a proud
    > Canadian. Also, I have been many times in the States, vacation only. I have been in
    > NYC, Chicago, Texas, Oklahoma, NM, Arizona, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, by car only, so
    > I was lucky to see REAL America, including many segments of Route 66. You know what
    > I like there, that people are very patriotic, they are Americans first and
    > foremost. My last trip was last year, before Christmas, from Toronto up to San
    > Diego, CA and Tijuana, Mexico, so that was shortly after 9/11, almost every car had
    > an US flag, and many of the houses I passed by had a US flag. Also stickers with
    > 'United we stand' on almost every car, in Vegas, besides big billboards with Wayne
    > Newton or Siegfried & Roy, you could see everywhere 'In America we believe', or the
    > most popular 'United we stand'. That kind of thing I would like to see in Canada,
    > people showing their patriotism, but instead of that I have to see only Italian,
    > Polish, Greek, Jamaican, Portuguese, Brazilian, etc., flags. We had the Soccer
    > World Cup just before Canada Day, everybody was wearing a different national flag,
    > and I have no problem with that, but for the Canada Day I could hardly see Canadian
    > flags on any car with a Canadian license plate. I live in Toronto, so my story
    > applies to life in Toronto. Yes, Canada in general it's cleaner than USofA, yes,
    > criminality it's lower than in USofA, but in USofA there is a nation, American
    > nation, in Canada we don't have a notion, or it's only on paper, most of the
    > immigrants come to Canada not to become entirely Canadians, they want just a better
    > life but to hold on their roots. All I want is to see that kind of American
    > patriotism, I would like to see that woman, Sheila Copps, Heritage Minister,
    > instead of blocking US satellite companies to operate in Canada, to tell each and
    > every Canadian that "Canada is your country, and if you love it just show it". Hell
    > with multiculturalism, Toronto the most multicultural city in the word, we all MUST
    > be Canadians first and foremost, and show everybody how proud you are to be
    > Canadian. Maybe we need a 9/11-like to start loving this country, once it for all.
    > But until then, I will always look to the USofA as a model of patriotism. And I am
    > still a proud Canadian. Chris
    > "Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] o-
    > m    ...
    > > Calgary is certainly a good place to start. My family and I are from Watford, UK
    > > and became Canadian PRs last month though we are currently in the US due to work
    > > commitments for about another 5 months. When we landed we headed straight for
    > > Alberta to check out Edmonton and Calgary as these were the two cities we had
    > > dreamed about throughout our application process. We were not disapointed.
    > > Calgary is a big place, set against a backdrop of the Rockies, its a beautiful
    > > modern skyscaper of a place, yet has a pedestrian mall right in the center banked
    > > either side by original buildings. Theres a lot of new housing going up in the
    > > area and its population is growing at a rate of knots. We checked out the new
    > > housing developments and what we could get for the equivilent of our tiny mid
    > > terrace 2 up 2 down place in the UK would knock your socks off. Ok, the wages are
    > > lower, but its all to do with the 'quality' of life, the environment etc. We felt
    > > right at home. Samller in size, Edmonton has a more 'accessible' feel about it
    > > and still feels as though its a city miles from anywhere, which basically it is.
    > > I loved both places and guess we'll end up in which ever city the first job offer
    > > comes along. We certainly have no regrets leaving the UK and although we left
    > > behind friends and family its not just about us, we have a three year old's
    > > future to think about. Begin here in the US, you just cant compare it with
    > > Canada, they are like chalk and cheese. Canada by fair is the better place.
    > > America is alien. Its far too over the top in its americanism, too american.
    > > Everywhere I look theres a US flag or the news is telling me about americas war
    > > on terror, war on sadam, war on obesity, war on war, you hear little of the
    > > outside world here. Canada on the other hand much more modest, low key. Its
    > > friendly, boy its friendly. People are polite, even when driving ! When we
    > > landed, it took 3 days before we saw a policeman, haha. Canada has 'charm' and a
    > > strangly familiar homey feel about it. Some people may disagree with my rantings
    > > but its just how I felt, and my wife. We're counting the days until we return in
    > > the new year.
    > >
    > > Jock <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > I'm giving some serious thought to moving myself and my family to Calgary from
    > > > West Yorkshire, England in the next few years. The weather here is crap, house
    > > > prices are becoming extortionate, the crime rate in the UK is the worst in
    > > > Western Europe, we seem to have a riot every summer - like last years race riot
    > > > in Bradford - and much of the British youth are out of control. Not a nice
    > > > place overall to raise a family and grow old. OK I've convinced meself...I'm
    > > > out of here. Anyone else out there taken flight from the North of England?
    > > >
    > > > Another thing - I reckon I'm borderline for 75 points because of my language
    > > > "skills". Problem is I did a BTEC National Diploma (Business) with French as a
    > > > module (at college) and a BA (Hons) with French as a subject in my final year
    > > > at Uni. On top of this I gained a "Level 2" Certificate in French at the age of
    > > > 14 at school but didn't take an O'Level in the subject when given an option
    > > > later. I'm hoping that would gain me the extra 4 points I need to reach 75.
    > > > Anyone out there scraped in with similar language based qualifications? I
    > > > daren't take a French test now - I jetisoned all my knowledge 10 years ago when
    > > > I left the examination hall (in one ear - out the other).
    > > >
    > > > Jock

The Wizzard

Strangely enough when i go to Canada i am always taken aback by the amount of flags
and patriotic things. its not the blind "we are the biggest and best and you all
suck" american thing, but there is a definate pride to people being Canadian, right
down to teh damned beer commericials hehe. I dont think its as over the top as the US
especially not after 11/9 , but compared to the UK, its astounding. this is a fault
on the UK's part not Canada's. our flag and such has either been hijacked by
rightwing nationalists or people jsut tihnk you are harping back to the empire. I
like that they have flags everywhere, it kinda feels like a country that knows who it
is and is proud of itsself, but in a community way without having to shove it down
peoples throats. peopel have like tshirts that say "canada is great" and i have a
roots top my mother in law bought me for xmas that has CANADA in big letters on it
and its great and noone thinks its strange, that only ever happens in England if its
a football shirt. I think scotland and wales and ireland all have good relationships
with their flags and national identity because they have all been the opressed
peoples resurging and finding their heritage and indipendance etc, where as england
is always seen as the bad guy that did the opressing so people are less inclined to
identify with it. maybe

Drew





"Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] o-
m...
    > Chris I hear what your saying but I am horrified at your suggestion that canada
    > needs a 9/11 to make it more patriotic, come on, you didnt mean that did you? I
    > too was struck by americas self pride when I first came here and thought why cant
    > the UK be more like that but those feelings wore off pretty rapidly after the
    > 'honeymoon' period was over and I began feeling the extent at which it was being
    > used. Patriotism is one thing, modesty is another. You dont need a flag in every
    > flower pot to remind you who you are and where you are and who you are (the flags
    > and car stickers are still here chris, I too have seen the 'REAL' America - by
    > road - from US falls in Niagra to the Grand Canyon and beyond), they are just
    > symbols. Its how you 'feel'. In Canada I found the lack of flags and the like a
    > relief. I knew I was in Canada, i didnt need a flag to remind me, and even being a
    > new PR i kinda 'felt' Canadian and pride for my new country, i didnt need a flag
    > to remind me. 'Hell with multiculturism', another odd remark. Canada is currently
    > the only country to have 'multiculturism' written into its law. Its what present
    > day canada is made up off. Throwing all that away leaves what ? What is a true
    > Canadian? An aboriginal is. Are you living life as they did before european
    > settlers arrived or are you living life based on some european style ? You can
    > still love your new country but you cant change your DNA. I'm sure Canadian born
    > Canadians (non aboriginal) are able to trace their roots back to some foreign land
    > and with pride say 'yeah, i'm from Irish stock' or whatever. Why is that precluded
    > from immigrants ?
    > Yes, every Canadian has every reason to be proud of their country and to be loyal
    > and patriotic to it but lets not go down the american road of taking it to the
    > point of arrogance.
    > Jason.
    > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Jason, I have been in Canada for 10 years, immigrant as yourself, and am
a
    > > proud Canadian. Also, I have been many times in the States, vacation
only. I
    > > have been in NYC, Chicago, Texas, Oklahoma, NM, Arizona, Las Vegas, Los Angeles,
    > > by car only, so I was lucky to see REAL America, including many segments of Route
    > > 66. You know what I like there, that people are very patriotic, they are
    > > Americans first and foremost. My last trip was last year, before Christmas, from
    > > Toronto up to San Diego, CA and Tijuana, Mexico, so that was shortly after 9/11,
    > > almost every car had an US flag,
and
    > > many of the houses I passed by had a US flag. Also stickers with 'United
we
    > > stand' on almost every car, in Vegas, besides big billboards with Wayne Newton or
    > > Siegfried & Roy, you could see everywhere 'In America we
believe',
    > > or the most popular 'United we stand'. That kind of thing I would like
to
    > > see in Canada, people showing their patriotism, but instead of that I
have
    > > to see only Italian, Polish, Greek, Jamaican, Portuguese, Brazilian,
etc.,
    > > flags. We had the Soccer World Cup just before Canada Day, everybody was wearing
    > > a different national flag, and I have no problem with that, but
for
    > > the Canada Day I could hardly see Canadian flags on any car with a
Canadian
    > > license plate. I live in Toronto, so my story applies to life in
Toronto.
    > > Yes, Canada in general it's cleaner than USofA, yes, criminality it's
lower
    > > than in USofA, but in USofA there is a nation, American nation, in
Canada we
    > > don't have a notion, or it's only on paper, most of the immigrants come
to
    > > Canada not to become entirely Canadians, they want just a better life
but to
    > > hold on their roots. All I want is to see that kind of American
patriotism,
    > > I would like to see that woman, Sheila Copps, Heritage Minister, instead
of
    > > blocking US satellite companies to operate in Canada, to tell each and
every
    > > Canadian that "Canada is your country, and if you love it just show it". Hell
    > > with multiculturalism, Toronto the most multicultural city in the
word,
    > > we all MUST be Canadians first and foremost, and show everybody how
proud
    > > you are to be Canadian. Maybe we need a 9/11-like to start loving this country,
    > > once it for all. But until then, I will always look to the
USofA as
    > > a model of patriotism. And I am still a proud Canadian. Chris
    > >
    > > "Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > e.com    ...
    > > > Calgary is certainly a good place to start. My family and I are from Watford,
    > > > UK and became Canadian PRs last month though we are currently in the US due to
    > > > work commitments for about another 5 months. When we landed we headed straight
    > > > for Alberta to check out Edmonton and Calgary as these were the two cities we
    > > > had dreamed about throughout our application process. We were not disapointed.
    > > > Calgary is a big place, set against a backdrop of the Rockies, its a beautiful
    > > > modern skyscaper of a place, yet has a pedestrian mall right in the center
    > > > banked either side by original buildings. Theres a lot of new housing going up
    > > > in the area and its population is growing at a rate of knots. We checked out
    > > > the new housing developments and what we could get for the equivilent of our
    > > > tiny mid terrace 2 up 2 down place in the UK would knock your socks off. Ok,
    > > > the wages are lower, but its all to do with the 'quality' of life, the
    > > > environment etc. We felt right at home. Samller in size, Edmonton has a more
    > > > 'accessible' feel about it and still feels as though its a city miles from
    > > > anywhere, which basically it is. I loved both places and guess we'll end up in
    > > > which ever city the first job offer comes along. We certainly have no regrets
    > > > leaving the UK and although we left behind friends and family its not just
    > > > about us, we have a three year old's future to think about. Begin here in the
    > > > US, you just cant compare it with Canada, they are like chalk and cheese.
    > > > Canada by fair is the better place. America is alien. Its far too over the top
    > > > in its americanism, too american. Everywhere I look theres a US flag or the
    > > > news is telling me about americas war on terror, war on sadam, war on obesity,
    > > > war on war, you hear little of the outside world here. Canada on the other hand
    > > > much more modest, low key. Its friendly, boy its friendly. People are polite,
    > > > even when driving ! When we landed, it took 3 days before we saw a policeman,
    > > > haha. Canada has 'charm' and a strangly familiar homey feel about it. Some
    > > > people may disagree with my rantings but its just how I felt, and my wife.
    > > > We're counting the days until we return in the new year.
    > > >
    > > > Jock <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > I'm giving some serious thought to moving myself and my family to Calgary
    > > > > from West Yorkshire, England in the next few years. The
weather
    > > > > here is crap, house prices are becoming extortionate, the crime rate
in
    > > > > the UK is the worst in Western Europe, we seem to have a riot every summer -
    > > > > like last years race riot in Bradford - and much of the
British
    > > > > youth are out of control. Not a nice place overall to raise a family
and
    > > > > grow old. OK I've convinced meself...I'm out of here. Anyone else
out
    > > > > there taken flight from the North of England?
    > > > >
    > > > > Another thing - I reckon I'm borderline for 75 points because of my language
    > > > > "skills". Problem is I did a BTEC National Diploma
(Business)
    > > > > with French as a module (at college) and a BA (Hons) with French as
a
    > > > > subject in my final year at Uni. On top of this I gained a "Level 2"
    > > > > Certificate in French at the age of 14 at school but didn't take an O'Level
    > > > > in the subject when given an option later. I'm hoping that
would
    > > > > gain me the extra 4 points I need to reach 75. Anyone out there
scraped
    > > > > in with similar language based qualifications? I daren't take a
French
    > > > > test now - I jetisoned all my knowledge 10 years ago when I left the
    > > > > examination hall (in one ear - out the other).
    > > > >
    > > > > Jock

Chris

Hi Jason, of course I did not mean it, a repeat of 9/11 on Canadian soil, only a sick
mind would think like that, I just used that tragic day as a comparison, or something
like that, something that would wake all us up and become all Canadians first and
foremost. But that little thing with flags and stickers, it shows what's in your
heart at that particular moment/time, you want to be proud being Canadian?, why not
showing it to everybody. How come during the Soccer World Cup at least 3 out of 5
cars in Toronto were having a foreign flag by the windshield? I can't forget a guy,
driving on DVP, with a HUGE Brazilian flag covering the entire hood!!! I repeat, I
have nothing against showing evrybody where are you coming from (if you really think
that somebody is interesting in that, NOT ME), but where is the flag of the country
where YOU are living NOW? What does that show me? That in your heart and soul you are
still belonging to your native country, whatever that might be. And I HATE that. But
the one responsible for this incredible situation is the Heritage Minister, Sheila
Copps, she has done NOTHING to make immigrants integrate fully into the Canadian
society. And that's why I voted with the CA, and I would like to see Mike Harris the
leader of the united right-wing, CA+PC. Something must change in this country. I have
nothing against multiculturalism, if it's done with some limits. Inside your bedroom
you can feel Italian, Greek, Portuguese, Brazilian, Indian, British (your case),
etc., but in public show everybody that you are proud to live in this country. But if
you always wear the same traditional clothes (that's about Middle-Easterners and
East-Indians), you shop only in your own community, you speak only with your own
native country-fellows, you will never become Canadian heart & soul. About me, I am
not Canadian because some law tells me how to be Canadian, I am Canadian because I am
very proud to be Canadian, and I am doing it every day. As our Paul Tracy, the CART
driver, said it in a commercial, "I am Paul and I am Canadian". And he doesn't even
live in Canada anymore, the same with Mike Myers, Martin Short, Jim Carry, Jason
Priestly, Celine Dion, etc., they NEVER forget to mention either on CNN's Larry King
Live, David Letterman or Jay Leno's Shows that they are Canadians living and working
in the States. I myself immigrated from some country in Europe, but now Canada is my
home country and nothing else counts. Have a nice week. Chris

"Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] o-
m...
    > Chris I hear what your saying but I am horrified at your suggestion that canada
    > needs a 9/11 to make it more patriotic, come on, you didnt mean that did you? I
    > too was struck by americas self pride when I first came here and thought why cant
    > the UK be more like that but those feelings wore off pretty rapidly after the
    > 'honeymoon' period was over and I began feeling the extent at which it was being
    > used. Patriotism is one thing, modesty is another. You dont need a flag in every
    > flower pot to remind you who you are and where you are and who you are (the flags
    > and car stickers are still here chris, I too have seen the 'REAL' America - by
    > road - from US falls in Niagra to the Grand Canyon and beyond), they are just
    > symbols. Its how you 'feel'. In Canada I found the lack of flags and the like a
    > relief. I knew I was in Canada, i didnt need a flag to remind me, and even being a
    > new PR i kinda 'felt' Canadian and pride for my new country, i didnt need a flag
    > to remind me. 'Hell with multiculturism', another odd remark. Canada is currently
    > the only country to have 'multiculturism' written into its law. Its what present
    > day canada is made up off. Throwing all that away leaves what ? What is a true
    > Canadian? An aboriginal is. Are you living life as they did before european
    > settlers arrived or are you living life based on some european style ? You can
    > still love your new country but you cant change your DNA. I'm sure Canadian born
    > Canadians (non aboriginal) are able to trace their roots back to some foreign land
    > and with pride say 'yeah, i'm from Irish stock' or whatever. Why is that precluded
    > from immigrants ?
    > Yes, every Canadian has every reason to be proud of their country and to be loyal
    > and patriotic to it but lets not go down the american road of taking it to the
    > point of arrogance.
    > Jason.
    > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Jason, I have been in Canada for 10 years, immigrant as yourself, and am
a
    > > proud Canadian. Also, I have been many times in the States, vacation
only. I
    > > have been in NYC, Chicago, Texas, Oklahoma, NM, Arizona, Las Vegas, Los Angeles,
    > > by car only, so I was lucky to see REAL America, including many segments of Route
    > > 66. You know what I like there, that people are very patriotic, they are
    > > Americans first and foremost. My last trip was last year, before Christmas, from
    > > Toronto up to San Diego, CA and Tijuana, Mexico, so that was shortly after 9/11,
    > > almost every car had an US flag,
and
    > > many of the houses I passed by had a US flag. Also stickers with 'United
we
    > > stand' on almost every car, in Vegas, besides big billboards with Wayne Newton or
    > > Siegfried & Roy, you could see everywhere 'In America we
believe',
    > > or the most popular 'United we stand'. That kind of thing I would like
to
    > > see in Canada, people showing their patriotism, but instead of that I
have
    > > to see only Italian, Polish, Greek, Jamaican, Portuguese, Brazilian,
etc.,
    > > flags. We had the Soccer World Cup just before Canada Day, everybody was wearing
    > > a different national flag, and I have no problem with that, but
for
    > > the Canada Day I could hardly see Canadian flags on any car with a
Canadian
    > > license plate. I live in Toronto, so my story applies to life in
Toronto.
    > > Yes, Canada in general it's cleaner than USofA, yes, criminality it's
lower
    > > than in USofA, but in USofA there is a nation, American nation, in
Canada we
    > > don't have a notion, or it's only on paper, most of the immigrants come
to
    > > Canada not to become entirely Canadians, they want just a better life
but to
    > > hold on their roots. All I want is to see that kind of American
patriotism,
    > > I would like to see that woman, Sheila Copps, Heritage Minister, instead
of
    > > blocking US satellite companies to operate in Canada, to tell each and
every
    > > Canadian that "Canada is your country, and if you love it just show it". Hell
    > > with multiculturalism, Toronto the most multicultural city in the
word,
    > > we all MUST be Canadians first and foremost, and show everybody how
proud
    > > you are to be Canadian. Maybe we need a 9/11-like to start loving this country,
    > > once it for all. But until then, I will always look to the
USofA as
    > > a model of patriotism. And I am still a proud Canadian. Chris
    > >
    > > "Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > e.com    ...
    > > > Calgary is certainly a good place to start. My family and I are from Watford,
    > > > UK and became Canadian PRs last month though we are currently in the US due to
    > > > work commitments for about another 5 months. When we landed we headed straight
    > > > for Alberta to check out Edmonton and Calgary as these were the two cities we
    > > > had dreamed about throughout our application process. We were not disapointed.
    > > > Calgary is a big place, set against a backdrop of the Rockies, its a beautiful
    > > > modern skyscaper of a place, yet has a pedestrian mall right in the center
    > > > banked either side by original buildings. Theres a lot of new housing going up
    > > > in the area and its population is growing at a rate of knots. We checked out
    > > > the new housing developments and what we could get for the equivilent of our
    > > > tiny mid terrace 2 up 2 down place in the UK would knock your socks off. Ok,
    > > > the wages are lower, but its all to do with the 'quality' of life, the
    > > > environment etc. We felt right at home. Samller in size, Edmonton has a more
    > > > 'accessible' feel about it and still feels as though its a city miles from
    > > > anywhere, which basically it is. I loved both places and guess we'll end up in
    > > > which ever city the first job offer comes along. We certainly have no regrets
    > > > leaving the UK and although we left behind friends and family its not just
    > > > about us, we have a three year old's future to think about. Begin here in the
    > > > US, you just cant compare it with Canada, they are like chalk and cheese.
    > > > Canada by fair is the better place. America is alien. Its far too over the top
    > > > in its americanism, too american. Everywhere I look theres a US flag or the
    > > > news is telling me about americas war on terror, war on sadam, war on obesity,
    > > > war on war, you hear little of the outside world here. Canada on the other hand
    > > > much more modest, low key. Its friendly, boy its friendly. People are polite,
    > > > even when driving ! When we landed, it took 3 days before we saw a policeman,
    > > > haha. Canada has 'charm' and a strangly familiar homey feel about it. Some
    > > > people may disagree with my rantings but its just how I felt, and my wife.
    > > > We're counting the days until we return in the new year.
    > > >
    > > > Jock <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > I'm giving some serious thought to moving myself and my family to Calgary
    > > > > from West Yorkshire, England in the next few years. The
weather
    > > > > here is crap, house prices are becoming extortionate, the crime rate
in
    > > > > the UK is the worst in Western Europe, we seem to have a riot every summer -
    > > > > like last years race riot in Bradford - and much of the
British
    > > > > youth are out of control. Not a nice place overall to raise a family
and
    > > > > grow old. OK I've convinced meself...I'm out of here. Anyone else
out
    > > > > there taken flight from the North of England?
    > > > >
    > > > > Another thing - I reckon I'm borderline for 75 points because of my language
    > > > > "skills". Problem is I did a BTEC National Diploma
(Business)
    > > > > with French as a module (at college) and a BA (Hons) with French as
a
    > > > > subject in my final year at Uni. On top of this I gained a "Level 2"
    > > > > Certificate in French at the age of 14 at school but didn't take an O'Level
    > > > > in the subject when given an option later. I'm hoping that
would
    > > > > gain me the extra 4 points I need to reach 75. Anyone out there
scraped
    > > > > in with similar language based qualifications? I daren't take a
French
    > > > > test now - I jetisoned all my knowledge 10 years ago when I left the
    > > > > examination hall (in one ear - out the other).
    > > > >
    > > > > Jock

Jason Tomlins

Chris, we are now on the same level and I can speak with experience regarding what
you are saying. My wife is chinese, we met whilst I was living and working in
HongKong. My wife has a married sister in Richmond, Vancouver. They live their life
entirely within the chinese community. The time we spent with them it never felt like
we where even in Canada, my wife could not even stand for it. Basically, they had
swapped one HongKong for another and becuase of their refusal to integrate (they had
been there 8 years) they have serverly reduced their opotunities for growth and are
stuck working rediculous hours in chinese resturaunts. Now, my wife and I have a
young son and we are very keen for him to learn about his chinese background,
language etc, not forgeting his English half! BUT we will be, first and foremost, a
new Canadian and there should be no confussion where his loyalty will
lie. Openly displaying loyalty to another country while taking perminent residencey
or citizenship in another is precisely what causes racial tension, IMHO. One
nation, one people, with the small caveat that we are all individuals with a
different heritage - but coming together as Canadians.

Jason.



"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hi Jason, of course I did not mean it, a repeat of 9/11 on Canadian soil, only a
    > sick mind would think like that, I just used that tragic day as a comparison, or
    > something like that, something that would wake all us up and become all Canadians
    > first and foremost. But that little thing with flags and stickers, it shows what's
    > in your heart at that particular moment/time, you want to be proud being Canadian?,
    > why not showing it to everybody. How come during the Soccer World Cup at least 3
    > out of 5 cars in Toronto were having a foreign flag by the windshield? I can't
    > forget a guy, driving on DVP, with a HUGE Brazilian flag covering the entire
    > hood!!! I repeat, I have nothing against showing evrybody where are you coming from
    > (if you really think that somebody is interesting in that, NOT ME), but where is
    > the flag of the country where YOU are living NOW? What does that show me? That in
    > your heart and soul you are still belonging to your native country, whatever that
    > might be. And I HATE that. But the one responsible for this incredible situation is
    > the Heritage Minister, Sheila Copps, she has done NOTHING to make immigrants
    > integrate fully into the Canadian society. And that's why I voted with the CA, and
    > I would like to see Mike Harris the leader of the united right-wing, CA+PC.
    > Something must change in this country. I have nothing against multiculturalism, if
    > it's done with some limits. Inside your bedroom you can feel Italian, Greek,
    > Portuguese, Brazilian, Indian, British (your case), etc., but in public show
    > everybody that you are proud to live in this country. But if you always wear the
    > same traditional clothes (that's about Middle-Easterners and East-Indians), you
    > shop only in your own community, you speak only with your own native
    > country-fellows, you will never become Canadian heart & soul. About me, I am not
    > Canadian because some law tells me how to be Canadian, I am Canadian because I am
    > very proud to be Canadian, and I am doing it every day. As our Paul Tracy, the CART
    > driver, said it in a commercial, "I am Paul and I am Canadian". And he doesn't even
    > live in Canada anymore, the same with Mike Myers, Martin Short, Jim Carry, Jason
    > Priestly, Celine Dion, etc., they NEVER forget to mention either on CNN's Larry
    > King Live, David Letterman or Jay Leno's Shows that they are Canadians living and
    > working in the States. I myself immigrated from some country in Europe, but now
    > Canada is my home country and nothing else counts. Have a nice week. Chris
    > "Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] o-
    > m    ...
    > > Chris I hear what your saying but I am horrified at your suggestion that canada
    > > needs a 9/11 to make it more patriotic, come on, you didnt mean that did you? I
    > > too was struck by americas self pride when I first came here and thought why cant
    > > the UK be more like that but those feelings wore off pretty rapidly after the
    > > 'honeymoon' period was over and I began feeling the extent at which it was being
    > > used. Patriotism is one thing, modesty is another. You dont need a flag in every
    > > flower pot to remind you who you are and where you are and who you are (the flags
    > > and car stickers are still here chris, I too have seen the 'REAL' America - by
    > > road - from US falls in Niagra to the Grand Canyon and beyond), they are just
    > > symbols. Its how you 'feel'. In Canada I found the lack of flags and the like a
    > > relief. I knew I was in Canada, i didnt need a flag to remind me, and even being
    > > a new PR i kinda 'felt' Canadian and pride for my new country, i didnt need a
    > > flag to remind me. 'Hell with multiculturism', another odd remark. Canada is
    > > currently the only country to have 'multiculturism' written into its law. Its
    > > what present day canada is made up off. Throwing all that away leaves what ? What
    > > is a true Canadian? An aboriginal is. Are you living life as they did before
    > > european settlers arrived or are you living life based on some european style ?
    > > You can still love your new country but you cant change your DNA. I'm sure
    > > Canadian born Canadians (non aboriginal) are able to trace their roots back to
    > > some foreign land and with pride say 'yeah, i'm from Irish stock' or whatever.
    > > Why is that precluded from immigrants ?
    > >
    > > Yes, every Canadian has every reason to be proud of their country and to be loyal
    > > and patriotic to it but lets not go down the american road of taking it to the
    > > point of arrogance.
    > >
    > > Jason.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > Jason, I have been in Canada for 10 years, immigrant as yourself, and am
    > a
    > > > proud Canadian. Also, I have been many times in the States, vacation
    > only. I
    > > > have been in NYC, Chicago, Texas, Oklahoma, NM, Arizona, Las Vegas, Los
    > > > Angeles, by car only, so I was lucky to see REAL America, including many
    > > > segments of Route 66. You know what I like there, that people are very
    > > > patriotic, they are Americans first and foremost. My last trip was last year,
    > > > before Christmas, from Toronto up to San Diego, CA and Tijuana, Mexico, so that
    > > > was shortly after 9/11, almost every car had an US flag,
    > and
    > > > many of the houses I passed by had a US flag. Also stickers with 'United
    > we
    > > > stand' on almost every car, in Vegas, besides big billboards with Wayne Newton
    > > > or Siegfried & Roy, you could see everywhere 'In America we
    > believe',
    > > > or the most popular 'United we stand'. That kind of thing I would like
    > to
    > > > see in Canada, people showing their patriotism, but instead of that I
    > have
    > > > to see only Italian, Polish, Greek, Jamaican, Portuguese, Brazilian,
    > etc.,
    > > > flags. We had the Soccer World Cup just before Canada Day, everybody was
    > > > wearing a different national flag, and I have no problem with that, but
    > for
    > > > the Canada Day I could hardly see Canadian flags on any car with a
    > Canadian
    > > > license plate. I live in Toronto, so my story applies to life in
    > Toronto.
    > > > Yes, Canada in general it's cleaner than USofA, yes, criminality it's
    > lower
    > > > than in USofA, but in USofA there is a nation, American nation, in
    > Canada we
    > > > don't have a notion, or it's only on paper, most of the immigrants come
    > to
    > > > Canada not to become entirely Canadians, they want just a better life
    > but to
    > > > hold on their roots. All I want is to see that kind of American
    > patriotism,
    > > > I would like to see that woman, Sheila Copps, Heritage Minister, instead
    > of
    > > > blocking US satellite companies to operate in Canada, to tell each and
    > every
    > > > Canadian that "Canada is your country, and if you love it just show it". Hell
    > > > with multiculturalism, Toronto the most multicultural city in the
    > word,
    > > > we all MUST be Canadians first and foremost, and show everybody how
    > proud
    > > > you are to be Canadian. Maybe we need a 9/11-like to start loving this country,
    > > > once it for all. But until then, I will always look to the
    > USofA as
    > > > a model of patriotism. And I am still a proud Canadian. Chris
    > > >
    > > > "Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > > oogle.com    ...
    > > > > Calgary is certainly a good place to start. My family and I are from Watford,
    > > > > UK and became Canadian PRs last month though we are currently in the US due
    > > > > to work commitments for about another 5 months. When we landed we headed
    > > > > straight for Alberta to check out Edmonton and Calgary as these were the two
    > > > > cities we had dreamed about throughout our application process. We were not
    > > > > disapointed. Calgary is a big place, set against a backdrop of the Rockies,
    > > > > its a beautiful modern skyscaper of a place, yet has a pedestrian mall right
    > > > > in the center banked either side by original buildings. Theres a lot of new
    > > > > housing going up in the area and its population is growing at a rate of
    > > > > knots. We checked out the new housing developments and what we could get for
    > > > > the equivilent of our tiny mid terrace 2 up 2 down place in the UK would
    > > > > knock your socks off. Ok, the wages are lower, but its all to do with the
    > > > > 'quality' of life, the environment etc. We felt right at home. Samller in
    > > > > size, Edmonton has a more 'accessible' feel about it and still feels as
    > > > > though its a city miles from anywhere, which basically it is. I loved both
    > > > > places and guess we'll end up in which ever city the first job offer comes
    > > > > along. We certainly have no regrets leaving the UK and although we left
    > > > > behind friends and family its not just about us, we have a three year old's
    > > > > future to think about. Begin here in the US, you just cant compare it with
    > > > > Canada, they are like chalk and cheese. Canada by fair is the better place.
    > > > > America is alien. Its far too over the top in its americanism, too american.
    > > > > Everywhere I look theres a US flag or the news is telling me about americas
    > > > > war on terror, war on sadam, war on obesity, war on war, you hear little of
    > > > > the outside world here. Canada on the other hand much more modest, low key.
    > > > > Its friendly, boy its friendly. People are polite, even when driving ! When
    > > > > we landed, it took 3 days before we saw a policeman, haha. Canada has 'charm'
    > > > > and a strangly familiar homey feel about it. Some people may disagree with my
    > > > > rantings but its just how I felt, and my wife. We're counting the days until
    > > > > we return in the new year.
    > > > >
    > > > > Jock <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > > I'm giving some serious thought to moving myself and my family to Calgary
    > > > > > from West Yorkshire, England in the next few years. The
    > weather
    > > > > > here is crap, house prices are becoming extortionate, the crime rate
    > in
    > > > > > the UK is the worst in Western Europe, we seem to have a riot every summer
    > > > > > - like last years race riot in Bradford - and much of the
    > British
    > > > > > youth are out of control. Not a nice place overall to raise a family
    > and
    > > > > > grow old. OK I've convinced meself...I'm out of here. Anyone else
    > out
    > > > > > there taken flight from the North of England?
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Another thing - I reckon I'm borderline for 75 points because of my
    > > > > > language "skills". Problem is I did a BTEC National Diploma
    > (Business)
    > > > > > with French as a module (at college) and a BA (Hons) with French as
    > a
    > > > > > subject in my final year at Uni. On top of this I gained a "Level 2"
    > > > > > Certificate in French at the age of 14 at school but didn't take an O'Level
    > > > > > in the subject when given an option later. I'm hoping that
    > would
    > > > > > gain me the extra 4 points I need to reach 75. Anyone out there
    > scraped
    > > > > > in with similar language based qualifications? I daren't take a
    > French
    > > > > > test now - I jetisoned all my knowledge 10 years ago when I left the
    > > > > > examination hall (in one ear - out the other).
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Jock

MJA

Its sad to read that sentence 'maybe we need a 9/11 like' - who in the world needs anything like that? I think you will find that most Americans would wish that day never happened, nor ever will again.

Chris

Please be kind and read my very previous posting, the one from yesterday, same
thread. I cannot say how Americans were prior to those tragic events, 9/11, but after
that they are as united as never before. So, terrorists did not accomplish too much,
unfortunately 3,000 innocents lost their lives for just some diabolic ideas. And I
would like to see us, Canadians, as united as Americans are right now. I shouldn't
have used the 9/11 tragic events as a motive to be more united, that's why I am sorry
for that. But sometimes, important moments make a nation more united, do not forget
the 1995 Quebec Referendum when all Canadians from coast to coast to coast were very
united in support of Canada ( NO to separatists). Chris

"MJA" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Originally posted by Chris:
    > > Jason, I have been in Canada for 10 years, immigrant as yourself, and am a proud
    > > Canadian. Also, I have been many times in the States, vacation only. I have been
    > > in NYC, Chicago, Texas, Oklahoma, NM, Arizona, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, by car
    > > only, so I was lucky to see REAL America, including many segments of Route 66.
    > > You know what I like there, that people are very patriotic, they are Americans
    > > first and foremost. My last trip was last year, before Christmas, from Toronto up
    > > to San Diego, CA and Tijuana, Mexico, so that was shortly after 9/11, almost
    > > every car had an US flag, and many of the houses I passed by had a US flag. Also
    > > stickers with 'United we stand' on almost every car, in Vegas, besides big
    > > billboards with Wayne Newton or Siegfried & Roy, you could see everywhere 'In
    > > America we believe', or the most popular 'United we stand'. That kind of thing I
    > > would like to see in Canada, people showing their patriotism, but instead of that
    > > I have to see only Italian, Polish, Greek, Jamaican, Portuguese, Brazilian, etc.,
    > > flags. We had the Soccer World Cup just before Canada Day, everybody was wearing
    > > a different national flag, and I have no problem with that, but for the Canada
    > > Day I could hardly see Canadian flags on any car with a Canadian license plate. I
    > > live in Toronto, so my story applies to life in Toronto. Yes, Canada in general
    > > it's cleaner than USofA, yes, criminality it's lower than in USofA, but in USofA
    > > there is a nation, American nation, in Canada we don't have a notion, or it's
    > > only on paper, most of the immigrants come to Canada not to become entirely
    > > Canadians, they want just a better life but to hold on their roots. All I want is
    > > to see that kind of American patriotism, I would like to see that woman, Sheila
    > > Copps, Heritage Minister, instead of blocking US satellite companies to operate
    > > in Canada, to tell each and every Canadian that "Canada is your country, and if
    > > you love it just show it". Hell with multiculturalism, Toronto the most
    > > multicultural city in the word, we all MUST be Canadians first and foremost, and
    > > show everybody how proud you are to be Canadian. Maybe we need a 9/11-like to
    > > start loving this country, once it for all. But until then, I will always look to
    > > the USofA as a model of patriotism. And I am still a proud Canadian. Chris
    > >
    > > "Jason Tomlins" wrote in message
    > > news:6036093e.020825075-
    > > [email protected]"]ne-
    > > ws:6036093e.0208250758.44316a55@post-     ing.google.co- m[/url]...
    > > > Calgary is certainly a good place to start. My family and I are from Watford,
    > > > UK and became Canadian PRs last month though we are currently in the US due to
    > > > work commitments for about another 5 months. When we landed we headed straight
    > > > for Alberta to check out Edmonton and Calgary as these were the two cities we
    > > > had dreamed about throughout our application process. We were not disapointed.
    > > > Calgary is a big place, set against a backdrop of the Rockies, its a beautiful
    > > > modern skyscaper of a place, yet has a pedestrian mall right in the center
    > > > banked either side by original buildings. Theres a lot of new housing going up
    > > > in the area and its population is growing at a rate of knots. We checked out
    > > > the new housing developments and what we could get for the equivilent of our
    > > > tiny mid terrace 2 up 2 down place in the UK would knock your socks off. Ok,
    > > > the wages are lower, but its all to do with the 'quality' of life, the
    > > > environment etc. We felt right at home. Samller in size, Edmonton has a more
    > > > 'accessible' feel about it and still feels as though its a city miles from
    > > > anywhere, which basically it is. I loved both places and guess we'll end up in
    > > > which ever city the first job offer comes along. We certainly have no regrets
    > > > leaving the UK and although we left behind friends and family its not just
    > > > about us, we have a three year old's future to think about. Begin here in the
    > > > US, you just cant compare it with Canada, they are like chalk and cheese.
    > > > Canada by fair is the better place. America is alien. Its far too over the top
    > > > in its americanism, too american. Everywhere I look theres a US flag or the
    > > > news is telling me about americas war on terror, war on sadam, war on obesity,
    > > > war on war, you hear little of the outside world here. Canada on the other hand
    > > > much more modest, low key. Its friendly, boy its friendly. People are polite,
    > > > even when driving ! When we landed, it took 3 days before we saw a policeman,
    > > > haha. Canada has 'charm' and a strangly familiar homey feel about it. Some
    > > > people may disagree with my rantings but its just how I felt, and my wife.
    > > > We're counting the days until we return in the new year. Jock wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > > I'm giving some serious thought to moving myself and my family to Calgary
    > > > > from West Yorkshire, England in the next few years. The weather here is crap,
    > > > > house prices are becoming extortionate, the crime rate in the UK is the worst
    > > > > in Western Europe, we seem to have a riot every summer - like last years race
    > > > > riot in Bradford - and much of the British youth are out of control. Not a
    > > > > nice place overall to raise a family and grow old. OK I've convinced
    > > > > meself...I'm out of here. Anyone else out there taken flight from the North
    > > > > of England?
    > > > >
    > > > > Another thing - I reckon I'm borderline for 75 points because of my language
    > > > > "skills". Problem is I did a BTEC National Diploma (Business) with French as
    > > > > a module (at college) and a BA (Hons) with French as a subject in my final
    > > > > year at Uni. On top of this I gained a "Level 2" Certificate in French at the
    > > > > age of 14 at school but didn't take an O'Level in the subject when given an
    > > > > option later. I'm hoping that would gain me the extra 4 points I need to
    > > > > reach
    > > > > 75. Anyone out there scraped in with similar language based qualifications? I
    > > > > daren't take a French test now - I jetisoned all my knowledge 10 years
    > > > > ago when I left the examination hall (in one ear - out the other).
    > > > >
    > > > > Jock
    > Its sad to read that sentence 'maybe we need a 9/11 like' - who in the world
    > needs anything like that? I think you will find that most Americans would wish
    > that day never happened, nor ever will again.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Bodza Bodza

"The Wizzard" wrote:
    > Strangely enough when i go to Canada i am always taken aback by the amount of flags
    > and patriotic things. its not the blind "we are the biggest and best and you all
    > suck" american thing..

That's only because it's more subtle. Instead of saying directly "Everywhere except
the USA is a third-world shithole" (literal phrase which I have actually heard spoken
from an American), you will often hear "The USA sucks, Canada is better."

Sounds fair enough but in reality what they are actually saying is "Canada is better
than the USA and everywhere else is a third-world shithole".

Ask the average person what they think life is like in Western Europe or what
salaries are like in Canada compared to Western Europe, prices etc etc etc in almost
every case you will be met with a complete inability to accept that maybe Canada
isn't so great at *everything*.

I found that hard to swallow, particularly since the people in the UK have the direct
opposite attitude (The UK sucks, everything is behind, Canada is better, USA is
better, Europe is better, we are as bad as the third world etc etc etc) without ever
checking the facts.

The REALITY is that neither Canada or the USA are as good as they think they are and
the UK/Europe are not as bad as they think they are in comparison. They're MUCH
closer and the differences in life quality are superficial.

The Wizzard

"Bodza Bodza" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] o-
m...
    > "The Wizzard" wrote:
    > > Strangely enough when i go to Canada i am always taken aback by the
amount
    > > of flags and patriotic things. its not the blind "we are the biggest and best and
    > > you all suck" american thing..
    > That's only because it's more subtle. Instead of saying directly "Everywhere except
    > the USA is a third-world shithole" (literal phrase which I have actually heard
    > spoken from an American), you will often hear "The USA sucks, Canada is better."
    > Sounds fair enough but in reality what they are actually saying is "Canada is
    > better than the USA and everywhere else is a third-world shithole".
    > Ask the average person what they think life is like in Western Europe or what
    > salaries are like in Canada compared to Western Europe, prices etc etc etc in
    > almost every case you will be met with a complete inability to accept that maybe
    > Canada isn't so great at *everything*.
    > I found that hard to swallow, particularly since the people in the UK have the
    > direct opposite attitude (The UK sucks, everything is behind, Canada is better, USA
    > is better, Europe is better, we are as bad as the third world etc etc etc) without
    > ever checking the facts.
    > The REALITY is that neither Canada or the USA are as good as they think they are
    > and the UK/Europe are not as bad as they think they are in comparison. They're MUCH
    > closer and the differences in life quality are superficial.

yeah i have to agree with that. the differences are really in lifestyle i think
rather than actual material reality. you can get pretty mcuh identicle things and the
prices etc arent that different, some of the brand names are different sure but its
all teh same stuff when you get down to it. personally i dont think any one country
is "better" than another, i just know ive enjoyed myself enoguh living in Canada to
think id like to live there, but i also like living in the UK (apart from a few years
in inner manchester but eberywhere has places like that). Id be happy in either. I
much prefer in a way Canada's patriotism to americas in referance to what was stated
before. even more so after 11/9 , Chris saying that he thought america was improved
as a nation after 11/9 certainly doesnt strike a chord with me. Peronally i think its
a step backwards, a step away from the kind of isolationist nationalism that causes
problems in clashes of culture. its made everythign black and whaite to americans,
you are either an evil terrorist type who hates america or you are a gret alover of
america and think its the best. but the world isnt a black and white place. in the
USA you can no longer as easiy critizise the government or the country without being
seen as sympathising with the enemy, you cant as openly say you think the US foreign
policy in the middle east sucks because thats against the greater american good. etc
etc increases in state intrusion on privacy, closer monitoring of people, more
brainwashing of people in to teh notion that their nation is a huge giant infallable
house of democraacy and everywher eelse is either trying to catch up and be the same
or is the enemy who must change and become lik ethem. thats not personally the kind
of "democracy" and "patriotism" i like to see. the same as in the US in the 50's
where if you werent 100% for the Us policy you were probably a communist. i dont
think Canada is quite big enough or populace enough to compeltely shut itsself away
from international events and thinking, it is far more in tune with international
opinions on environment, trade and such things than the US in general is. however its
hard to generalise as Canada has only 30 million people and the US has 280 million so
it is bound to have more ignorant people, or more slef involved places jsut as ithas
more scientists or more factoies etc. also i gues sit doesnt help when they beam
shows like jerry springer around the world hehe.

Charlotte

Whadya mean dodgy sports? Our team qualified (okay for the first time ever) for the
World Cup Cricket!

Charlotte





Jock <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > Thanks for the reply Jason. I've been to the States myself (Florida - California -
    > Nevada - Arizona) and agree with your assertions. Nice place to visit but... Still
    > apart from the dodgy sports they play Canada looks the place for me.
    > Jock

Chris

Jason, thanks for sharing your life experience. I have met Chinese in Toronto that do
not speak English after 30+ years in this country. But obviously nobody can force
them to speak English, that's their own choice, but what bothers me the most is the
way they see multiculturalism in this country. There is a miracle to see non-Chinese
working in industrial/manufacturing companies owned by Chinese nationals! I can give
you dozens of examples where English is an almost prohibited language at the work
place. I remember many, many years ago, as a new immigrant and looking for work, I
went to Employment Canada, they had those ATM machines (I don't know their real
name), where you had to wait in line for the first available one, and then browse the
entire list of openings, there were lots of openings requiring Cantonese/Mandarin as
an asset. Obviously no non-Chinese would get that kind of job. Is that fair? Is this
multiculturalism? If it's so, hell with that! And I am talking about Toronto, the
largest Canadian city! They do not employ non-Chinese workers. Period. And about
those from East Indies, from India to Sri Lanka, those people by religion are not
allowed to get in contact with Western traditions! It's extremely rare to see an
Indian woman wearing western clothes, I mean bluejeans, t-shirt, Nike/Adidas
snickers, a French perfume. And if you tell them that this is Canada, a Western
country with Western traditions, they will accuse you of racism. Any Western woman
who goes to the MiddleEast, as soon as she arrives at the airport, MUST hide her hair
and live the same life as any local woman (remember that movie with Sally Field
trying to bring her daughter back to America, I think that was in Iran or Iraq), but
here nobody tells those people that they are immigrated to a Western country, where
christian traditions are the foundations of this country. You will be a racist, for
them, if you tell them the truth. Those people will NEVER be loyal to their new
adopted country, I am talking about the majority of them and especially the first
generation of immigrants (their kids, after growing up here, if they are allowed to
embrace the Western life, will ultimately become loyal Canadians), they are here just
to escape the poverty in their home country and nothing more. The Citizenship oath
means nothing for them, not to say that those from East-Indies hate the Queen as much
as they can. They see her only as a symbol of colonialism, that's why they gained
independence from the British rule, right? And thanks for bringing the right words to
this subject, "Openly displaying loyalty to another country while taking permanent
residency or citizenship in another is precisely what causes RACIAL TENSION, IMHO.
One nation, one people, with the small caveat that we are all individuals with a
different heritage - but coming together as Canadians". Enjoy your new life in THIS
beautiful country and best of luck in your new endeavor. Chris

"Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] o-
m...
    > Chris, we are now on the same level and I can speak with experience regarding what
    > you are saying. My wife is chinese, we met whilst I was living and working in
    > HongKong. My wife has a married sister in Richmond, Vancouver. They live their life
    > entirely within the chinese community. The time we spent with them it never felt
    > like we where even in Canada, my wife could not even stand for it. Basically, they
    > had swapped one HongKong for another and becuase of their refusal to integrate
    > (they had been there 8 years) they have serverly reduced their opotunities for
    > growth and are stuck working rediculous hours in chinese resturaunts. Now, my wife
    > and I have a young son and we are very keen for him to learn about his chinese
    > background, language etc, not forgeting his English half! BUT we will be, first and
    > foremost, a new Canadian and there should be no confussion where his loyalty will
    > lie. Openly displaying loyalty to another country while taking perminent residencey
    > or citizenship in another is precisely what causes racial tension, IMHO. One
    > nation, one people, with the small caveat that we are all individuals with a
    > different heritage - but coming together as Canadians.
    > Jason.
    > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Hi Jason, of course I did not mean it, a repeat of 9/11 on Canadian
soil,
    > > only a sick mind would think like that, I just used that tragic day as a
    > > comparison, or something like that, something that would wake all us up
and
    > > become all Canadians first and foremost. But that little thing with
flags
    > > and stickers, it shows what's in your heart at that particular
moment/time,
    > > you want to be proud being Canadian?, why not showing it to everybody.
How
    > > come during the Soccer World Cup at least 3 out of 5 cars in Toronto
were
    > > having a foreign flag by the windshield? I can't forget a guy, driving
on
    > > DVP, with a HUGE Brazilian flag covering the entire hood!!! I repeat, I
have
    > > nothing against showing evrybody where are you coming from (if you
really
    > > think that somebody is interesting in that, NOT ME), but where is the
flag
    > > of the country where YOU are living NOW? What does that show me? That in your
    > > heart and soul you are still belonging to your native country,
whatever
    > > that might be. And I HATE that. But the one responsible for this
incredible
    > > situation is the Heritage Minister, Sheila Copps, she has done NOTHING
to
    > > make immigrants integrate fully into the Canadian society. And that's
why I
    > > voted with the CA, and I would like to see Mike Harris the leader of the united
    > > right-wing, CA+PC. Something must change in this country. I have nothing against
    > > multiculturalism, if it's done with some limits. Inside
your
    > > bedroom you can feel Italian, Greek, Portuguese, Brazilian, Indian,
British
    > > (your case), etc., but in public show everybody that you are proud to
live
    > > in this country. But if you always wear the same traditional clothes
(that's
    > > about Middle-Easterners and East-Indians), you shop only in your own community,
    > > you speak only with your own native country-fellows, you will never become
    > > Canadian heart & soul. About me, I am not Canadian because
some
    > > law tells me how to be Canadian, I am Canadian because I am very proud
to be
    > > Canadian, and I am doing it every day. As our Paul Tracy, the CART
driver,
    > > said it in a commercial, "I am Paul and I am Canadian". And he doesn't
even
    > > live in Canada anymore, the same with Mike Myers, Martin Short, Jim
Carry,
    > > Jason Priestly, Celine Dion, etc., they NEVER forget to mention either
on
    > > CNN's Larry King Live, David Letterman or Jay Leno's Shows that they are
    > > Canadians living and working in the States. I myself immigrated from
some
    > > country in Europe, but now Canada is my home country and nothing else counts.
    > > Have a nice week. Chris
    > >
    > > "Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > e.com    ...
    > > > Chris I hear what your saying but I am horrified at your suggestion that canada
    > > > needs a 9/11 to make it more patriotic, come on, you didnt mean that did you? I
    > > > too was struck by americas self pride when I first came here and thought why
    > > > cant the UK be more like that but those feelings wore off pretty rapidly after
    > > > the 'honeymoon' period was over and I began feeling the extent at which it was
    > > > being used. Patriotism is one thing, modesty is another. You dont need a flag
    > > > in every flower pot to remind you who you are and where you are and who you are
    > > > (the flags and car stickers are still here chris, I too have seen the 'REAL'
    > > > America - by road - from US falls in Niagra to the Grand Canyon and beyond),
    > > > they are just symbols. Its how you 'feel'. In Canada I found the lack of flags
    > > > and the like a relief. I knew I was in Canada, i didnt need a flag to remind
    > > > me, and even being a new PR i kinda 'felt' Canadian and pride for my new
    > > > country, i didnt need a flag to remind me. 'Hell with multiculturism', another
    > > > odd remark. Canada is currently the only country to have 'multiculturism'
    > > > written into its law. Its what present day canada is made up off. Throwing all
    > > > that away leaves what ? What is a true Canadian? An aboriginal is. Are you
    > > > living life as they did before european settlers arrived or are you living life
    > > > based on some european style ? You can still love your new country but you cant
    > > > change your DNA. I'm sure Canadian born Canadians (non aboriginal) are able to
    > > > trace their roots back to some foreign land and with pride say 'yeah, i'm from
    > > > Irish stock' or whatever. Why is that precluded from immigrants ?
    > > >
    > > > Yes, every Canadian has every reason to be proud of their country and to be
    > > > loyal and patriotic to it but lets not go down the american road of taking it
    > > > to the point of arrogance.
    > > >
    > > > Jason.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > Jason, I have been in Canada for 10 years, immigrant as yourself,
and am
    > > a
    > > > > proud Canadian. Also, I have been many times in the States, vacation
    > > only. I
    > > > > have been in NYC, Chicago, Texas, Oklahoma, NM, Arizona, Las Vegas,
Los
    > > > > Angeles, by car only, so I was lucky to see REAL America, including
many
    > > > > segments of Route 66. You know what I like there, that people are
very
    > > > > patriotic, they are Americans first and foremost. My last trip was
last
    > > > > year, before Christmas, from Toronto up to San Diego, CA and
Tijuana,
    > > > > Mexico, so that was shortly after 9/11, almost every car had an US
flag,
    > > and
    > > > > many of the houses I passed by had a US flag. Also stickers with
'United
    > > we
    > > > > stand' on almost every car, in Vegas, besides big billboards with
Wayne
    > > > > Newton or Siegfried & Roy, you could see everywhere 'In America we
    > > believe',
    > > > > or the most popular 'United we stand'. That kind of thing I would
like
    > > to
    > > > > see in Canada, people showing their patriotism, but instead of that
I
    > > have
    > > > > to see only Italian, Polish, Greek, Jamaican, Portuguese, Brazilian,
    > > etc.,
    > > > > flags. We had the Soccer World Cup just before Canada Day, everybody
was
    > > > > wearing a different national flag, and I have no problem with that,
but
    > > for
    > > > > the Canada Day I could hardly see Canadian flags on any car with a
    > > Canadian
    > > > > license plate. I live in Toronto, so my story applies to life in
    > > Toronto.
    > > > > Yes, Canada in general it's cleaner than USofA, yes, criminality
it's
    > > lower
    > > > > than in USofA, but in USofA there is a nation, American nation, in
    > > Canada we
    > > > > don't have a notion, or it's only on paper, most of the immigrants
come
    > > to
    > > > > Canada not to become entirely Canadians, they want just a better
life
    > > but to
    > > > > hold on their roots. All I want is to see that kind of American
    > > patriotism,
    > > > > I would like to see that woman, Sheila Copps, Heritage Minister,
instead
    > > of
    > > > > blocking US satellite companies to operate in Canada, to tell each
and
    > > every
    > > > > Canadian that "Canada is your country, and if you love it just show
it".
    > > > > Hell with multiculturalism, Toronto the most multicultural city in
the
    > > word,
    > > > > we all MUST be Canadians first and foremost, and show everybody how
    > > proud
    > > > > you are to be Canadian. Maybe we need a 9/11-like to start loving
this
    > > > > country, once it for all. But until then, I will always look to the
    > > USofA as
    > > > > a model of patriotism. And I am still a proud Canadian. Chris
    > > > >
    > > > > "Jason Tomlins" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:6036093e.0208250758.44316a55@posti-
    > > > > ng.google.com    ...
    > > > > > Calgary is certainly a good place to start. My family and I are
from
    > > > > > Watford, UK and became Canadian PRs last month though we are
currently
    > > > > > in the US due to work commitments for about another 5 months. When
we
    > > > > > landed we headed straight for Alberta to check out Edmonton and Calgary as
    > > > > > these were the two cities we had dreamed about
throughout
    > > > > > our application process. We were not disapointed. Calgary is a big place,
    > > > > > set against a backdrop of the Rockies, its a beautiful
modern
    > > > > > skyscaper of a place, yet has a pedestrian mall right in the
center
    > > > > > banked either side by original buildings. Theres a lot of new
housing
    > > > > > going up in the area and its population is growing at a rate of
knots.
    > > > > > We checked out the new housing developments and what we could get
for
    > > > > > the equivilent of our tiny mid terrace 2 up 2 down place in the UK would
    > > > > > knock your socks off. Ok, the wages are lower, but its all
to do
    > > > > > with the 'quality' of life, the environment etc. We felt right at home.
    > > > > > Samller in size, Edmonton has a more 'accessible' feel about
it
    > > > > > and still feels as though its a city miles from anywhere, which basically
    > > > > > it is. I loved both places and guess we'll end up in
which
    > > > > > ever city the first job offer comes along. We certainly have no regrets
    > > > > > leaving the UK and although we left behind friends and
family
    > > > > > its not just about us, we have a three year old's future to think about.
    > > > > > Begin here in the US, you just cant compare it with Canada, they are like
    > > > > > chalk and cheese. Canada by fair is the better
place.
    > > > > > America is alien. Its far too over the top in its americanism, too
    > > > > > american. Everywhere I look theres a US flag or the news is
telling me
    > > > > > about americas war on terror, war on sadam, war on obesity, war on war, you
    > > > > > hear little of the outside world here. Canada on the
other
    > > > > > hand much more modest, low key. Its friendly, boy its friendly.
People
    > > > > > are polite, even when driving ! When we landed, it took 3 days
before
    > > > > > we saw a policeman, haha. Canada has 'charm' and a strangly
familiar
    > > > > > homey feel about it. Some people may disagree with my rantings but
its
    > > > > > just how I felt, and my wife. We're counting the days until we
return
    > > > > > in the new year.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Jock <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > > > I'm giving some serious thought to moving myself and my family
to
    > > > > > > Calgary from West Yorkshire, England in the next few years. The
    > > weather
    > > > > > > here is crap, house prices are becoming extortionate, the crime
rate
    > > in
    > > > > > > the UK is the worst in Western Europe, we seem to have a riot
every
    > > > > > > summer - like last years race riot in Bradford - and much of the
    > > British
    > > > > > > youth are out of control. Not a nice place overall to raise a
family
    > > and
    > > > > > > grow old. OK I've convinced meself...I'm out of here. Anyone
else
    > > out
    > > > > > > there taken flight from the North of England?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Another thing - I reckon I'm borderline for 75 points because of
my
    > > > > > > language "skills". Problem is I did a BTEC National Diploma
    > > (Business)
    > > > > > > with French as a module (at college) and a BA (Hons) with French
as
    > > a
    > > > > > > subject in my final year at Uni. On top of this I gained a
"Level 2"
    > > > > > > Certificate in French at the age of 14 at school but didn't take
an
    > > > > > > O'Level in the subject when given an option later. I'm hoping
that
    > > would
    > > > > > > gain me the extra 4 points I need to reach 75. Anyone out there
    > > scraped
    > > > > > > in with similar language based qualifications? I daren't take a
    > > French
    > > > > > > test now - I jetisoned all my knowledge 10 years ago when I left
the
    > > > > > > examination hall (in one ear - out the other).
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Jock

Bodza Bodza

"The Wizzard" wrote:
    > yeah i have to agree with that. the differences are really in lifestyle i think
    > rather than actual material reality. you can get pretty mcuh identicle things and
    > the prices etc arent that different, some of the brand names are different sure but
    > its all teh same stuff when you get down to it. personally i dont think any one
    > country is "better" than another,

Exactly. Canada is an *excellent* place to live when you have a job. So is the UK, so
is the USA, so is France etc etc etc. But they are *different*. So you decide what is
to your personal taste and if you have the choice you go live where you like better.
There are *tons* of things I like better about Canada than the UK but there are
*tons* of things I like better about the UK than Canada.


    > Chris saying that he thought america was improved as a nation after 11/9 certainly
    > doesnt strike a chord with me.

Chris is a fruitbar.

    >Peronally i think its a step backwards

The Americans have always been a bit xenophobic. I think 9/11 has made them a lot
worse than before. I have a bit of personal insight into this because I am married to
a Mexican from the US border area. Almost every week after the 9/11 I heard tales
from her family about how friends etc were being deported. So whether one agrees or
disagrees with undocumented immigration you have to ask yourself "What the hell do
the Mexicans working in sweatshops have to do with ARAB terrorists"? What's happened
is that the yanks have simply tarred everyone with the same brush. I guess that's
partly due to the fact that if they didn't they'd be accused of racism...

    > its made everythign black and whaite to americans,

It's always been that way to a lesser extent. To just get a visitor visa to the US
for my wife and mother of my two sons, it wasn't enough for them that she was a
landed immigrant in Canada with two sons. According to them she had to have a job and
have her name on our lease, because otherwise she was likely to "abandon her husband
and children try to work illegally in the US" (for below minimum wage, in spite of
the fact we were living well in Canada!). It's as if some numbskull sets up rules
somewhere for pigeonholing people and the yanks are unable to see beyond the edges.

    > you are either an evil terrorist type who hates america or you are a gret >alover
    > of america and think its the best. but the world isnt a black and >white place.

Exactly. I laughed my ass off when Chelsea Clinton was "reduced to tears" in Oxford
after the students dared to mention the fact that perhaps America had a little bit to
do with making the terrorists angry since they were effectively starving women and
children in Iraq. I hope if they *do* have a war against Iraq that they are not so
cowardly as to simply bomb from the air and actually send in troops to oust him.
(This is my own opinion).

    > the same as in the US in the 50's where if you werent 100% for the Us policy you
    > were probably a communist.

Or in Salem in the 1600s where you would have been a witch.

    > i dont think Canada is quite big enough or populace enough to compeltely shut
    > itsself away from international events and thinking, it is far more in tune with
    > international opinions on environment, trade and such things than the US in
    > general is.

But only a little more. Remember Canada is also isolated and sees things in a
distorted way through a gravitational lense caused by pull of the black hole that is
the United States.

Having said that, I'd rather have the yanks running things than some others I can
think of. Although the way they are going, maybe not.

The Wizzard

"charlotte" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] o-
m...
    > Whadya mean dodgy sports? Our team qualified (okay for the first time ever) for the
    > World Cup Cricket!
    > Charlotte
Definatley the US is the palce for weird sports. mostly just simplified versions of
other peoples sports and then made more dull. Like American Football which is just
rugby but with easier rules, lots of helmets and pads and a lot less action. Or
Baseball which is just glorified Rounders and twice as dull as cricket. Or motor
sport, the rest of the world does F1 on complex tracks so they have IndyCars mostly
going round in circles, same with NASCAR, round and round and round not a ahir pin or
a chicain in site. no F1 grand prix, no WRC stages. or basketball, invented by a
Canadian, but really dull to watch especially nowadays with the super athletes all
they have to do is get the ball to score. apart from athletics its all very
isolationist, onthe would they have a World Series that didnt involve anyone but the
USA and a handful of Canadian sides. hehe. although i have to say ice hockey is one
of the better north american sports and i quite loike that lots of speed and action
so more exciting to watch than say baseball or american football, probably a good job
i like ice hockey moving to Canada.

Terry R Brooking

    > probably a good job i like ice hockey moving to Canada.

I thought that was a visa requirement! <g>
--
Regards -Terry