Sarah Ostrinsky

Dear Renee,

With all due respect, the "Rick Ross" site, as you call it is not a
series of monologues by Rick Ross, "cult-fighter". Rather, it is a
compendium of personal statements by several past Yogaville members,
family members, etc. which describe actual events and situations that
have horrified them - instances of severe abuses. If these stories
sound "obnoxious", as you say, they obviously should, as the abuses of
Yogaville have been more than slightly upsetting. Please consider the
possibility that not all visitors have been permitted the "freedom of
mind" that you obviously have been in deciding which aspects of which
religions to choose to accept. Your note strikes a rather superior
attitude, as if somehow all of the residents of Yogaville have
voluntarily decided on their own to become obsessed with Satchidananda
as a god, but that your superior knowledge and intelligence have
shielded you. Please be aware that many current residents also, at
one time, had the same strong reasoning abilities that you obviously
have, and the freedom to make their own decisions. However, that
freedom of choice was taken away from them. This is a fact that you
should consider when you rave about this "ashram."

"Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<uIRwb.494653$6C4.369562@pd7tw1no>...
    > I've seen the Rick Ross site and the Catherine site as well. With all due
    > respect, I have a mind of my own, as well as the ability to take some good
    > lessons taught at the ashram to heart without changing my entire life to
    > revolve around them.
    >
    > I've been to Satchidananda Ashram numerous times, and yes, I've learned a
    > lot about the Indian culture and the Hindu religion there. There were
    > Indian traditions observed while I was visiting, including a beautiful
    > birthday celebration for a respected 80 year old mother. There were also
    > individuals from India there that I met and learned from on each of my
    > visits, plus a friend who was in residence at Yogaville and had traveled to
    > India regularly. Not at all the same as actually traveling to India myself,
    > but it was a good opportunity to learn.
    >
    > Yes, they embrace the belief that "truth is one, paths are many," so the
    > Lotus shrine is indeed dedicated to all the world's religions with an
    > additional section for those that we may not know about but still have
    > value. The times I visited the ashram included a scriptural study on
    > Thursday evenings. Those studies focused on one religion per session, but
    > included all the major religions over the course of a year for the benefit
    > of those in residence at the ashram. Twice I was introduced to the Bhagavad
    > Gita and the Hindu faith, and it inspired me to learn more on my own. I
    > don't claim to know everything about Hinduism or any other religion - and I
    > don't practice any one religion. I consider myself a spiritual person. I
    > want to be a well educated individual who is open-minded to all kinds of
    > ideas. I see value in all kinds of ideas, and I don't dismiss something
    > just because it's foreign to me, nor do I exclude everything else and
    > dismiss others' beliefs.
    >
    > There are some people in the Yogaville environment that I personally think
    > have immersed themselves too much into the teachings of Satchidananda. But
    > those are not my choices to make. My choice is to use the teachings of
    > Sivananda and Satchidananda as guidelines for living, not to leave my entire
    > life behind and denounce anything that goes against them.
    >
    > For example, both gurus preach non-violence in the form of vegetarianism,
    > yet I am not a vegetarian. I do not chant and meditate daily, and I don't
    > get to practice asana as often as I'd like, but I still recognize the value
    > of all those things and I do still practice them when I can. I do find the
    > yoga sutras to contain a lot of wisdom. Contrary to Mr. Ross's belief, I
    > don't think mantra repetition is brainwashing; I find it to be a great way
    > to center myself on the days when I need to feel calm again. I balance all
    > those yogic teachings in the grand scope of the rest of my life, as it is
    > all important.
    >
    > I find the tenets of most of the disciplines of yoga to be profound, and I
    > enjoyed the times I was able to visit the ashram to learn more about them.
    > The majority of the guests there with me for the programs or short personal
    > retreats were the same way. Many of them were practicing Catholics,
    > Buddhists, Jews, or members of other religions. They were able to balance
    > the messages of the ashram with their other beliefs with no problem.
    >
    > Certainly I cannot speak about the inside story at the ashram because I
    > would not have moved there permanently. I met some wonderful people in
    > residence, some who took monastic vows, and others who just wanted to better
    > themselves. If there have been incidences of abuse or alientation from
    > families, then I am truly sorry.
    >
    > For myself, I looked at Satchidananda as a human teacher only, not a
    > demi-God. I don't believe that his entire message should be discounted
    > because some individuals lost perspective in their quest for the truth.
    > Certainly, he's never claimed to have personally invented any of what he
    > teaches. One needs only to look around Sivananda Hall to observe the
    > respect for the original saints and teachers from many religions.
    > Satchidananda claims only to have come from India upon request from his
    > teacher, Sivananda, to extend the teachings to other parts of the world.
    >
    > On a couple of the times I attended satsang at the ashram, Satchidananda
    > responded to questions with the reminder that he is a teacher only and not
    > God. Some people seemed to believe otherwise, but the impression I got was
    > that Satchidananda discouraged that. I never saw him deify himself; I saw
    > the opposite, despite the fact that some people seemed to want to put him on
    > a pedestal as more than just a teacher.
    >
    > Perhaps you posted what you did because you had a bad experience yourself.
    > I don't know, but if so, I'm sorry you went through it. However, I believe
    > that many people learn a great deal of worthwhile lessons at Yogaville
    > without expense to their regular life. I find the Rick Ross site to be
    > pretty obnoxious, to be honest. I am open-minded and comfortable enough in
    > my beliefs to have read through a good deal of it, but Mr. Ross seems to
    > find fault with everybody. There is the issue of his own past and criminal
    > history as well. We all have our own opinions, so I will not deny him the
    > right to his. However, I came away from Yogaville with positive experiences
    > and without being brainwashed, and I'm a better person for it.
    >
    > Best wishes.
    >
    > Renee
    >
    > --
    > Inland Spouse Timeline so far:
    > 19 Feb 2003: Moved to Calgary from U.S. on 6 month TRV
    > 12 May 2003: Did medicals in Calgary
    > 20 June 2003: Applied for TRV extension
    > 5 July 2003: Wedding Date
    > 17 July 2003: CIC received inland spouse PR application
    > 15 Aug 2003: Received 6 month TRV extension
    > 20 Aug 2003: CIC request for work history dates (which were sent with
    > application)
    > 21 Aug 2003: CIC received work history reply by overnight post
    > 4 Sept 2003: CIC e-Client finally shows "in process"
    >
    >
    > "Sarah Ostrinsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Renee,
    > >
    > > It's fascinating that you say that you have learned much Indian
    > > culture from the Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia. Interestingly, the
    > > ashram professes to embrace all religions and cultures, not one. In
    > > fact, the Lotus temple itself is supposedly a shrine to the unity of
    > > all religious experiences. Is this not true? Further, some people say
    > > that the Ashram is far from a true Indian experience. See
    > > http://www.freecatherine.com and
    > > http://www.rickross.com/reference/yo...gaville69.html
    > > for additional details in this regard.
    > >
    > > "Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<JEowb.486227$9l5.116353@pd7tw2no>...
    > > > Good question. As someone who has practiced Integral yoga since 1996
    > and
    > > > gotten a lot of insight to the Indian culture during several visits to
    > the
    > > > Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia, I've wondered the same thing. From
    > what I
    > > > can see, India has a lot of great qualities.
    > > >
    > > > I'm looking forward to some replies from the perspective of those who
    > know
    > > > both India and North America better than I do.
    > > >
    > > > Renee
    > > >

Sarah Ostrinsky

Renee,

One other point that I failed to note previously. While I mentioned
that the practices of Yogaville obviously belie their "spiritual"
message, I failed to note that even with respect to their spiritual
message, they seem to be viewed by the general public as lacking in
true spirituality. For example, a New Zealand website
(www.inthelight.co.nz) that rates 1,300 gurus and spiritual teachers
rates Yogaville and Satchidananda at the bottom (lowest 17) along with
such notables as Sri Chimnoy and E.Ron Hubbard. Perhaps this is
another point that you should consider when mentioning integral yoga
with such reverence.


"Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<uIRwb.494653$6C4.369562@pd7tw1no>...
    > I've seen the Rick Ross site and the Catherine site as well. With all due
    > respect, I have a mind of my own, as well as the ability to take some good
    > lessons taught at the ashram to heart without changing my entire life to
    > revolve around them.
    >
    > I've been to Satchidananda Ashram numerous times, and yes, I've learned a
    > lot about the Indian culture and the Hindu religion there. There were
    > Indian traditions observed while I was visiting, including a beautiful
    > birthday celebration for a respected 80 year old mother. There were also
    > individuals from India there that I met and learned from on each of my
    > visits, plus a friend who was in residence at Yogaville and had traveled to
    > India regularly. Not at all the same as actually traveling to India myself,
    > but it was a good opportunity to learn.
    >
    > Yes, they embrace the belief that "truth is one, paths are many," so the
    > Lotus shrine is indeed dedicated to all the world's religions with an
    > additional section for those that we may not know about but still have
    > value. The times I visited the ashram included a scriptural study on
    > Thursday evenings. Those studies focused on one religion per session, but
    > included all the major religions over the course of a year for the benefit
    > of those in residence at the ashram. Twice I was introduced to the Bhagavad
    > Gita and the Hindu faith, and it inspired me to learn more on my own. I
    > don't claim to know everything about Hinduism or any other religion - and I
    > don't practice any one religion. I consider myself a spiritual person. I
    > want to be a well educated individual who is open-minded to all kinds of
    > ideas. I see value in all kinds of ideas, and I don't dismiss something
    > just because it's foreign to me, nor do I exclude everything else and
    > dismiss others' beliefs.
    >
    > There are some people in the Yogaville environment that I personally think
    > have immersed themselves too much into the teachings of Satchidananda. But
    > those are not my choices to make. My choice is to use the teachings of
    > Sivananda and Satchidananda as guidelines for living, not to leave my entire
    > life behind and denounce anything that goes against them.
    >
    > For example, both gurus preach non-violence in the form of vegetarianism,
    > yet I am not a vegetarian. I do not chant and meditate daily, and I don't
    > get to practice asana as often as I'd like, but I still recognize the value
    > of all those things and I do still practice them when I can. I do find the
    > yoga sutras to contain a lot of wisdom. Contrary to Mr. Ross's belief, I
    > don't think mantra repetition is brainwashing; I find it to be a great way
    > to center myself on the days when I need to feel calm again. I balance all
    > those yogic teachings in the grand scope of the rest of my life, as it is
    > all important.
    >
    > I find the tenets of most of the disciplines of yoga to be profound, and I
    > enjoyed the times I was able to visit the ashram to learn more about them.
    > The majority of the guests there with me for the programs or short personal
    > retreats were the same way. Many of them were practicing Catholics,
    > Buddhists, Jews, or members of other religions. They were able to balance
    > the messages of the ashram with their other beliefs with no problem.
    >
    > Certainly I cannot speak about the inside story at the ashram because I
    > would not have moved there permanently. I met some wonderful people in
    > residence, some who took monastic vows, and others who just wanted to better
    > themselves. If there have been incidences of abuse or alientation from
    > families, then I am truly sorry.
    >
    > For myself, I looked at Satchidananda as a human teacher only, not a
    > demi-God. I don't believe that his entire message should be discounted
    > because some individuals lost perspective in their quest for the truth.
    > Certainly, he's never claimed to have personally invented any of what he
    > teaches. One needs only to look around Sivananda Hall to observe the
    > respect for the original saints and teachers from many religions.
    > Satchidananda claims only to have come from India upon request from his
    > teacher, Sivananda, to extend the teachings to other parts of the world.
    >
    > On a couple of the times I attended satsang at the ashram, Satchidananda
    > responded to questions with the reminder that he is a teacher only and not
    > God. Some people seemed to believe otherwise, but the impression I got was
    > that Satchidananda discouraged that. I never saw him deify himself; I saw
    > the opposite, despite the fact that some people seemed to want to put him on
    > a pedestal as more than just a teacher.
    >
    > Perhaps you posted what you did because you had a bad experience yourself.
    > I don't know, but if so, I'm sorry you went through it. However, I believe
    > that many people learn a great deal of worthwhile lessons at Yogaville
    > without expense to their regular life. I find the Rick Ross site to be
    > pretty obnoxious, to be honest. I am open-minded and comfortable enough in
    > my beliefs to have read through a good deal of it, but Mr. Ross seems to
    > find fault with everybody. There is the issue of his own past and criminal
    > history as well. We all have our own opinions, so I will not deny him the
    > right to his. However, I came away from Yogaville with positive experiences
    > and without being brainwashed, and I'm a better person for it.
    >
    > Best wishes.
    >
    > Renee
    >
    > --
    > Inland Spouse Timeline so far:
    > 19 Feb 2003: Moved to Calgary from U.S. on 6 month TRV
    > 12 May 2003: Did medicals in Calgary
    > 20 June 2003: Applied for TRV extension
    > 5 July 2003: Wedding Date
    > 17 July 2003: CIC received inland spouse PR application
    > 15 Aug 2003: Received 6 month TRV extension
    > 20 Aug 2003: CIC request for work history dates (which were sent with
    > application)
    > 21 Aug 2003: CIC received work history reply by overnight post
    > 4 Sept 2003: CIC e-Client finally shows "in process"
    >
    >
    > "Sarah Ostrinsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Renee,
    > >
    > > It's fascinating that you say that you have learned much Indian
    > > culture from the Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia. Interestingly, the
    > > ashram professes to embrace all religions and cultures, not one. In
    > > fact, the Lotus temple itself is supposedly a shrine to the unity of
    > > all religious experiences. Is this not true? Further, some people say
    > > that the Ashram is far from a true Indian experience. See
    > > http://www.freecatherine.com and
    > > http://www.rickross.com/reference/yo...gaville69.html
    > > for additional details in this regard.
    > >
    > > "Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<JEowb.486227$9l5.116353@pd7tw2no>...
    > > > Good question. As someone who has practiced Integral yoga since 1996
    > and
    > > > gotten a lot of insight to the Indian culture during several visits to
    > the
    > > > Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia, I've wondered the same thing. From
    > what I
    > > > can see, India has a lot of great qualities.
    > > >
    > > > I'm looking forward to some replies from the perspective of those who
    > know
    > > > both India and North America better than I do.
    > > >
    > > > Renee
    > > >

Renee

I do not minimize the personal messages of the individuals who report bad
experiences at ALL. I am not dismissing those. I have not read every last
page of the Ross site, but I have read all the Yogaville content as well as
parts of the information about other groups than can be accessed from his
home page.

For everyone who has felt wronged by any of the groups included on that
website, I send the most heartfelt good thoughts. Of course those stories
are hard to read and give everyone something to think about - that's why I
took the time back in 2000 to read them all when I was first told about the
site, and why I clicked your link to see what was new. Just because they go
against a group that I've liked, that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly
assume that they're lying or that their experiences weren't true for them,
even though I did not share them.

What I was referring to as obnoxious was Mr. Ross's crusader-like tone on
the site. I read it, and I get the sense that Mr. Ross is assuming that his
readers cannot form their own opinions about the groups, that they should
just automatically assume everything about them is bad because he says so.
In a sense, it seems not that far removed from some of the ideas he finds
issue with.

I replied to your post with the reasons why I felt I had positive
experiences at Satchidananda Ashram. I am sorry you thought I was coming
across as superior - I can assure you, I am far from that. I consider
myself to be a very down to earth individual, with a well rounded background
because I've listened to a lot of ideas and decided which were right for me.
I also have a strong sense of helping others through my volunteer work
(which falls under the category of karma yoga). Most recently, that's been
in a soup kitchen environment, but I've also worked for child abuse
prevention, World AIDS Day, and at hospitals. I admit that I clean out my
closets every three months or so because I don't like having anything extra
when other people have nothing at all. I'd rather wash one set of sheets
and replace them on the same day than keep three sets and know that
somewhere there's a victim of domestic violence who just ran off with
nothing and needs things like that. I even said in my earlier post that I'd
like to do more than I have, so I'm definitely not putting myself ahead of
anyone else. I've had some bad experiences in my own past, but I've been
able to become a bigger hearted person because of it, which is where I get
my character trait to listen to everyone before forming an opinion, even if
it turns out that my initial instinct about disagreeing with them becomes
true.

I don't look down on anyone. I took my last job in the States as an
administrative assistant at my local jail because I wanted the challenge of
ensuring the needs of the inmates were met and helping others to see that
they're not just a low-rate class of people that is simply shut away and
forgotten about. They may have commited crimes, but they are still
someone's sons, daughters, husbands, friends, and siblings, and they still
need to eat, bathe, sleep, etc. Sometimes it's easy for people to forget
that part and dismiss them as scum of the earth....until someone they know
is arrested and locked up. I don't think you can find fault with my using
that experience as a way to strengthen my compassion. It's easier to write
off those who hurt us than it is to find forgiveness and the desire to help
them. I'm not perfect in that regard either - that's why I try to make
myself better.

My visits to the ashram were not that different - just another way to find
another perspective that might make me look at things in a new light. I
don't mention the jail or my volunteer work to make myself look like a great
person (I just think I'm a caring one), it's just to say that I have a
balance of all kinds of experiences that have taught me some good lessons,
not just one ashram, although I greatly enjoyed my time there. Perhaps
that's the problem with message boards and websites - it's one-dimensional c
ommunication that fails to let the reader get the whole picture, but merely
a small representation of someone's thoughts and ideas.

I don't doubt that any of the groups on Mr. Ross's site have had followers
that lost their sense of perspective, but honestly, the same can be said for
some of the most accepted organized religions as well. I have known devout
Christians who have immersed themselves in their religious life and
restructured their existence completely around the church and church
activities. Sometimes that meant leaving friends and family behind, and
donating huge sums of money, as well, yet because it was a Catholic or
Pentecostal church, somehow it was different than a Hare Krishna or a
Moonie. One of my former work supervisors for a medium sized corporation
used to preach the Book of Revelation to me and tell me that my ATM card was
evil because it was a mark of the beast. That doesn't mean that I have to
cut up my bank cards, but there *are* some valuable messages in reading the
Revelation text.

To me, it's a matter of balance, and integrating positive ideas into the
rest of my life. I don't think anyone can measure "true spirituality." I
don't have a problem with homosexuality or someone else deciding to have an
abortion, for example, yet the Catholic church does. That doesn't mean I'm
going to rank them at the bottom of a list, although I'm not going to march
with them either. They've got some other teachings that I do integrate into
my overall spiritual beliefs after spending 12 years in a Catholic school.
The yoga gurus are spreading an ancient message for the most part. There's
variations in such ways as whether to practice asana in a steaming hot
sauna-like room as in Bikram yoga, whether it should be a more physically
challenging activity as in the Ashtanga discipline, or whether it is more of
a personally relaxing activity as in the Integral Yoga based on Sivananda
and Satchidananda's view. But the underlying yoga sutras are the same, and
I find them to contain a lot of good lessons.

As I said, I never lived at the ashram, I only took good experiences and
messages from it. I'm a pretty introverted person, so I don't have many
close friends, but I do have one who was in residence at the ashram for two
teacher training sessions, and she has now taken that knowledge to help her
with her own practice as well as teaching two classes a week at the Integral
Yoga Institute in New York City to supplement her elementary school
teacher's income. She also had good experiences without losing herself. I
will say that most people I know would have danger signs arise if they felt
their personal choices were being skewed along the way; in fact, one lady
did leave a women's retreat program on the first day because she felt
uncomfortable and I respected that. That doesn't mean I think badly of
someone else who found themselves lost and didn't see it coming, but that
can happen anywhere, not just at Satchidananda Ashram.

I think it's safe to say that anyone who lives at any ashram or religious
community, especially one that is geographically distant as Yogaville is (25
minutes from the closest city), knows they are going to immerse themselves
in the experience. It's one thing to attend a Sunday church service, then
head home with the family. It's another to decide to physically move to the
center of a spiritual community. It's not that I think I have superior
decision making or freedom, but I do think that some of the people who make
that decision aren't running "to" something, they're running "away" from
something else. A few people purposefully immersed themselves into every
part of the community that would accept them because that was what they
needed at the time, but the vast majority of the people I knew stayed for a
few weeks or months, then went back home again. It was usually a new group
of residents each time I visited, with the exception of the monastics.

Anyway, I didn't think I was raving about the ashram. Just giving my
reasons why I liked it there. If it were an unlimited discussion, you'd
know that there's plenty of other things that have touched my life in a good
way, but the topic at hand was Yogaville. It doesn't belong on a Canada
Immigration board anyway, so I'll close this post. I just didn't want to be
disrespectful and ignore you.

Renee

--
Inland Spouse Timeline so far:
19 Feb 2003: Moved to Calgary from U.S. on 6 month TRV
12 May 2003: Did medicals in Calgary
20 June 2003: Applied for TRV extension
5 July 2003: Wedding Date
17 July 2003: CIC received inland spouse PR application
15 Aug 2003: Received 6 month TRV extension
20 Aug 2003: CIC request for work history dates (which were sent with
application)
21 Aug 2003: CIC received work history reply by overnight post
4 Sept 2003: CIC e-Client finally shows "in process"
"Sarah Ostrinsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Renee,
    > One other point that I failed to note previously. While I mentioned
    > that the practices of Yogaville obviously belie their "spiritual"
    > message, I failed to note that even with respect to their spiritual
    > message, they seem to be viewed by the general public as lacking in
    > true spirituality. For example, a New Zealand website
    > (www.inthelight.co.nz) that rates 1,300 gurus and spiritual teachers
    > rates Yogaville and Satchidananda at the bottom (lowest 17) along with
    > such notables as Sri Chimnoy and E.Ron Hubbard. Perhaps this is
    > another point that you should consider when mentioning integral yoga
    > with such reverence.
    > "Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<uIRwb.494653$6C4.369562@pd7tw1no>...
    > > I've seen the Rick Ross site and the Catherine site as well. With all
due
    > > respect, I have a mind of my own, as well as the ability to take some
good
    > > lessons taught at the ashram to heart without changing my entire life to
    > > revolve around them.
    > >
    > > I've been to Satchidananda Ashram numerous times, and yes, I've learned
a
    > > lot about the Indian culture and the Hindu religion there. There were
    > > Indian traditions observed while I was visiting, including a beautiful
    > > birthday celebration for a respected 80 year old mother. There were
also
    > > individuals from India there that I met and learned from on each of my
    > > visits, plus a friend who was in residence at Yogaville and had traveled
to
    > > India regularly. Not at all the same as actually traveling to India
myself,
    > > but it was a good opportunity to learn.
    > >
    > > Yes, they embrace the belief that "truth is one, paths are many," so the
    > > Lotus shrine is indeed dedicated to all the world's religions with an
    > > additional section for those that we may not know about but still have
    > > value. The times I visited the ashram included a scriptural study on
    > > Thursday evenings. Those studies focused on one religion per session,
but
    > > included all the major religions over the course of a year for the
benefit
    > > of those in residence at the ashram. Twice I was introduced to the
Bhagavad
    > > Gita and the Hindu faith, and it inspired me to learn more on my own. I
    > > don't claim to know everything about Hinduism or any other religion -
and I
    > > don't practice any one religion. I consider myself a spiritual person.
I
    > > want to be a well educated individual who is open-minded to all kinds of
    > > ideas. I see value in all kinds of ideas, and I don't dismiss something
    > > just because it's foreign to me, nor do I exclude everything else and
    > > dismiss others' beliefs.
    > >
    > > There are some people in the Yogaville environment that I personally
think
    > > have immersed themselves too much into the teachings of Satchidananda.
But
    > > those are not my choices to make. My choice is to use the teachings of
    > > Sivananda and Satchidananda as guidelines for living, not to leave my
entire
    > > life behind and denounce anything that goes against them.
    > >
    > > For example, both gurus preach non-violence in the form of
vegetarianism,
    > > yet I am not a vegetarian. I do not chant and meditate daily, and I
don't
    > > get to practice asana as often as I'd like, but I still recognize the
value
    > > of all those things and I do still practice them when I can. I do find
the
    > > yoga sutras to contain a lot of wisdom. Contrary to Mr. Ross's belief,
I
    > > don't think mantra repetition is brainwashing; I find it to be a great
way
    > > to center myself on the days when I need to feel calm again. I balance
all
    > > those yogic teachings in the grand scope of the rest of my life, as it
is
    > > all important.
    > >
    > > I find the tenets of most of the disciplines of yoga to be profound, and
I
    > > enjoyed the times I was able to visit the ashram to learn more about
them.
    > > The majority of the guests there with me for the programs or short
personal
    > > retreats were the same way. Many of them were practicing Catholics,
    > > Buddhists, Jews, or members of other religions. They were able to
balance
    > > the messages of the ashram with their other beliefs with no problem.
    > >
    > > Certainly I cannot speak about the inside story at the ashram because I
    > > would not have moved there permanently. I met some wonderful people in
    > > residence, some who took monastic vows, and others who just wanted to
better
    > > themselves. If there have been incidences of abuse or alientation from
    > > families, then I am truly sorry.
    > >
    > > For myself, I looked at Satchidananda as a human teacher only, not a
    > > demi-God. I don't believe that his entire message should be discounted
    > > because some individuals lost perspective in their quest for the truth.
    > > Certainly, he's never claimed to have personally invented any of what he
    > > teaches. One needs only to look around Sivananda Hall to observe the
    > > respect for the original saints and teachers from many religions.
    > > Satchidananda claims only to have come from India upon request from his
    > > teacher, Sivananda, to extend the teachings to other parts of the world.
    > >
    > > On a couple of the times I attended satsang at the ashram, Satchidananda
    > > responded to questions with the reminder that he is a teacher only and
not
    > > God. Some people seemed to believe otherwise, but the impression I got
was
    > > that Satchidananda discouraged that. I never saw him deify himself; I
saw
    > > the opposite, despite the fact that some people seemed to want to put
him on
    > > a pedestal as more than just a teacher.
    > >
    > > Perhaps you posted what you did because you had a bad experience
yourself.
    > > I don't know, but if so, I'm sorry you went through it. However, I
believe
    > > that many people learn a great deal of worthwhile lessons at Yogaville
    > > without expense to their regular life. I find the Rick Ross site to be
    > > pretty obnoxious, to be honest. I am open-minded and comfortable enough
in
    > > my beliefs to have read through a good deal of it, but Mr. Ross seems to
    > > find fault with everybody. There is the issue of his own past and
criminal
    > > history as well. We all have our own opinions, so I will not deny him
the
    > > right to his. However, I came away from Yogaville with positive
experiences
    > > and without being brainwashed, and I'm a better person for it.
    > >
    > > Best wishes.
    > >
    > > Renee
    > >
    > > --
    > > Inland Spouse Timeline so far:
    > > 19 Feb 2003: Moved to Calgary from U.S. on 6 month TRV
    > > 12 May 2003: Did medicals in Calgary
    > > 20 June 2003: Applied for TRV extension
    > > 5 July 2003: Wedding Date
    > > 17 July 2003: CIC received inland spouse PR application
    > > 15 Aug 2003: Received 6 month TRV extension
    > > 20 Aug 2003: CIC request for work history dates (which were sent with
    > > application)
    > > 21 Aug 2003: CIC received work history reply by overnight post
    > > 4 Sept 2003: CIC e-Client finally shows "in process"
    > >
    > >
    > > "Sarah Ostrinsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > Renee,
    > > >
    > > > It's fascinating that you say that you have learned much Indian
    > > > culture from the Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia. Interestingly, the
    > > > ashram professes to embrace all religions and cultures, not one. In
    > > > fact, the Lotus temple itself is supposedly a shrine to the unity of
    > > > all religious experiences. Is this not true? Further, some people say
    > > > that the Ashram is far from a true Indian experience. See
    > > > http://www.freecatherine.com and
    > > > http://www.rickross.com/reference/yo...gaville69.html
    > > > for additional details in this regard.
    > > >
    > > > "Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<JEowb.486227$9l5.116353@pd7tw2no>...
    > > > > Good question. As someone who has practiced Integral yoga since
1996
    > > and
    > > > > gotten a lot of insight to the Indian culture during several visits
to
    > > the
    > > > > Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia, I've wondered the same thing.
From
    > > what I
    > > > > can see, India has a lot of great qualities.
    > > > >
    > > > > I'm looking forward to some replies from the perspective of those
who
    > > know
    > > > > both India and North America better than I do.
    > > > >
    > > > > Renee
    > > > >

Renee

By the way, as I sit here typing a spreadsheet at the computer with Iron
Maiden cranked up, I wonder what Satchidananda would have to say about
THAT....see, I do stay true to myself while also benefiting from the yogic
teachings...I'm not givin' up my heavy metal for nobody.

Renee

--
Inland Spouse Timeline so far:
19 Feb 2003: Moved to Calgary from U.S. on 6 month TRV
12 May 2003: Did medicals in Calgary
20 June 2003: Applied for TRV extension
5 July 2003: Wedding Date
17 July 2003: CIC received inland spouse PR application
15 Aug 2003: Received 6 month TRV extension
20 Aug 2003: CIC request for work history dates (which were sent with
application)
21 Aug 2003: CIC received work history reply by overnight post
4 Sept 2003: CIC e-Client finally shows "in process"



"Sarah Ostrinsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Renee,
    > One other point that I failed to note previously. While I mentioned
    > that the practices of Yogaville obviously belie their "spiritual"
    > message, I failed to note that even with respect to their spiritual
    > message, they seem to be viewed by the general public as lacking in
    > true spirituality. For example, a New Zealand website
    > (www.inthelight.co.nz) that rates 1,300 gurus and spiritual teachers
    > rates Yogaville and Satchidananda at the bottom (lowest 17) along with
    > such notables as Sri Chimnoy and E.Ron Hubbard. Perhaps this is
    > another point that you should consider when mentioning integral yoga
    > with such reverence.
    > "Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<uIRwb.494653$6C4.369562@pd7tw1no>...
    > > I've seen the Rick Ross site and the Catherine site as well. With all
due
    > > respect, I have a mind of my own, as well as the ability to take some
good
    > > lessons taught at the ashram to heart without changing my entire life to
    > > revolve around them.
    > >
    > > I've been to Satchidananda Ashram numerous times, and yes, I've learned
a
    > > lot about the Indian culture and the Hindu religion there. There were
    > > Indian traditions observed while I was visiting, including a beautiful
    > > birthday celebration for a respected 80 year old mother. There were
also
    > > individuals from India there that I met and learned from on each of my
    > > visits, plus a friend who was in residence at Yogaville and had traveled
to
    > > India regularly. Not at all the same as actually traveling to India
myself,
    > > but it was a good opportunity to learn.
    > >
    > > Yes, they embrace the belief that "truth is one, paths are many," so the
    > > Lotus shrine is indeed dedicated to all the world's religions with an
    > > additional section for those that we may not know about but still have
    > > value. The times I visited the ashram included a scriptural study on
    > > Thursday evenings. Those studies focused on one religion per session,
but
    > > included all the major religions over the course of a year for the
benefit
    > > of those in residence at the ashram. Twice I was introduced to the
Bhagavad
    > > Gita and the Hindu faith, and it inspired me to learn more on my own. I
    > > don't claim to know everything about Hinduism or any other religion -
and I
    > > don't practice any one religion. I consider myself a spiritual person.
I
    > > want to be a well educated individual who is open-minded to all kinds of
    > > ideas. I see value in all kinds of ideas, and I don't dismiss something
    > > just because it's foreign to me, nor do I exclude everything else and
    > > dismiss others' beliefs.
    > >
    > > There are some people in the Yogaville environment that I personally
think
    > > have immersed themselves too much into the teachings of Satchidananda.
But
    > > those are not my choices to make. My choice is to use the teachings of
    > > Sivananda and Satchidananda as guidelines for living, not to leave my
entire
    > > life behind and denounce anything that goes against them.
    > >
    > > For example, both gurus preach non-violence in the form of
vegetarianism,
    > > yet I am not a vegetarian. I do not chant and meditate daily, and I
don't
    > > get to practice asana as often as I'd like, but I still recognize the
value
    > > of all those things and I do still practice them when I can. I do find
the
    > > yoga sutras to contain a lot of wisdom. Contrary to Mr. Ross's belief,
I
    > > don't think mantra repetition is brainwashing; I find it to be a great
way
    > > to center myself on the days when I need to feel calm again. I balance
all
    > > those yogic teachings in the grand scope of the rest of my life, as it
is
    > > all important.
    > >
    > > I find the tenets of most of the disciplines of yoga to be profound, and
I
    > > enjoyed the times I was able to visit the ashram to learn more about
them.
    > > The majority of the guests there with me for the programs or short
personal
    > > retreats were the same way. Many of them were practicing Catholics,
    > > Buddhists, Jews, or members of other religions. They were able to
balance
    > > the messages of the ashram with their other beliefs with no problem.
    > >
    > > Certainly I cannot speak about the inside story at the ashram because I
    > > would not have moved there permanently. I met some wonderful people in
    > > residence, some who took monastic vows, and others who just wanted to
better
    > > themselves. If there have been incidences of abuse or alientation from
    > > families, then I am truly sorry.
    > >
    > > For myself, I looked at Satchidananda as a human teacher only, not a
    > > demi-God. I don't believe that his entire message should be discounted
    > > because some individuals lost perspective in their quest for the truth.
    > > Certainly, he's never claimed to have personally invented any of what he
    > > teaches. One needs only to look around Sivananda Hall to observe the
    > > respect for the original saints and teachers from many religions.
    > > Satchidananda claims only to have come from India upon request from his
    > > teacher, Sivananda, to extend the teachings to other parts of the world.
    > >
    > > On a couple of the times I attended satsang at the ashram, Satchidananda
    > > responded to questions with the reminder that he is a teacher only and
not
    > > God. Some people seemed to believe otherwise, but the impression I got
was
    > > that Satchidananda discouraged that. I never saw him deify himself; I
saw
    > > the opposite, despite the fact that some people seemed to want to put
him on
    > > a pedestal as more than just a teacher.
    > >
    > > Perhaps you posted what you did because you had a bad experience
yourself.
    > > I don't know, but if so, I'm sorry you went through it. However, I
believe
    > > that many people learn a great deal of worthwhile lessons at Yogaville
    > > without expense to their regular life. I find the Rick Ross site to be
    > > pretty obnoxious, to be honest. I am open-minded and comfortable enough
in
    > > my beliefs to have read through a good deal of it, but Mr. Ross seems to
    > > find fault with everybody. There is the issue of his own past and
criminal
    > > history as well. We all have our own opinions, so I will not deny him
the
    > > right to his. However, I came away from Yogaville with positive
experiences
    > > and without being brainwashed, and I'm a better person for it.
    > >
    > > Best wishes.
    > >
    > > Renee
    > >
    > > --
    > > Inland Spouse Timeline so far:
    > > 19 Feb 2003: Moved to Calgary from U.S. on 6 month TRV
    > > 12 May 2003: Did medicals in Calgary
    > > 20 June 2003: Applied for TRV extension
    > > 5 July 2003: Wedding Date
    > > 17 July 2003: CIC received inland spouse PR application
    > > 15 Aug 2003: Received 6 month TRV extension
    > > 20 Aug 2003: CIC request for work history dates (which were sent with
    > > application)
    > > 21 Aug 2003: CIC received work history reply by overnight post
    > > 4 Sept 2003: CIC e-Client finally shows "in process"
    > >
    > >
    > > "Sarah Ostrinsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > Renee,
    > > >
    > > > It's fascinating that you say that you have learned much Indian
    > > > culture from the Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia. Interestingly, the
    > > > ashram professes to embrace all religions and cultures, not one. In
    > > > fact, the Lotus temple itself is supposedly a shrine to the unity of
    > > > all religious experiences. Is this not true? Further, some people say
    > > > that the Ashram is far from a true Indian experience. See
    > > > http://www.freecatherine.com and
    > > > http://www.rickross.com/reference/yo...gaville69.html
    > > > for additional details in this regard.
    > > >
    > > > "Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<JEowb.486227$9l5.116353@pd7tw2no>...
    > > > > Good question. As someone who has practiced Integral yoga since
1996
    > > and
    > > > > gotten a lot of insight to the Indian culture during several visits
to
    > > the
    > > > > Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia, I've wondered the same thing.
From
    > > what I
    > > > > can see, India has a lot of great qualities.
    > > > >
    > > > > I'm looking forward to some replies from the perspective of those
who
    > > know
    > > > > both India and North America better than I do.
    > > > >
    > > > > Renee
    > > > >

Sarah Ostrinsky

Dear Renee,

Thanks for your response. While I too do not wish to belabor the
points that we have each been making, given that this is a thread
within a very different topic, I must respond to one point that you
have raised. While you say that you do not minimize the personal
messages of bad experiences at Yogaville, you then basically go on to
do just that - largely attributing these bad experiences to personal
choices and dilemmas ("running from") as well as the general tendency
of all organizations to experience certain abuses.

Yet if the abuses within an organization are endemic to the entire
group process, then one must question whether these are merely
renegade abusers (e.g. as the abuses in the Catholic church) or part
of an overall structure that purposely oversees and perpetuates abuse
for the greater good of the organization.

Let me give one example - that of false memories. This practice is
commonly found in "cults" and rarely found in established religions,
which generally do not feel the strong need to bind its members to the
group so fervently. In the case of Catherine Cheng, for example,
within a few weeks of her visit to Yogaville, she began experiencing
false memories of her relations with her family - of numerous beatings
and having the police at the house. She also claimed that she was
forced to attend law school against her will. Within a matter of a
few short weeks in Yogaville, she became very close to the other
Yogaville members (choosing one for a husband in two weeks) and became
deathly afraid of her family. So again, I feel that it is important to
emphasize that, these forms of abuse go beyond simple matters of
freedom and choices. In fact, there had been no beatings or abuse of
this individual, no police visits, and according to most of her
previous friends and associates, she alone chose to attend law school,
against the recommendations of many family members. False memory
syndromes unfortunately are quite common in cults. They do not
usually show up in freely established organizations. Please consider
this and realize that such tactics undoubtedly are not utilized with
all associates of an organization. In that sense, your failure to
confirm these traits is quite understandable. Nevertheless, they do
appear to exist in this organization, they appear to be endemic to it,
and are deeply troubling.



"Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<V03xb.498528$6C4.427314@pd7tw1no>...
    > I do not minimize the personal messages of the individuals who report bad
    > experiences at ALL. I am not dismissing those. I have not read every last
    > page of the Ross site, but I have read all the Yogaville content as well as
    > parts of the information about other groups than can be accessed from his
    > home page.
    >
    > For everyone who has felt wronged by any of the groups included on that
    > website, I send the most heartfelt good thoughts. Of course those stories
    > are hard to read and give everyone something to think about - that's why I
    > took the time back in 2000 to read them all when I was first told about the
    > site, and why I clicked your link to see what was new. Just because they go
    > against a group that I've liked, that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly
    > assume that they're lying or that their experiences weren't true for them,
    > even though I did not share them.
    >
    > What I was referring to as obnoxious was Mr. Ross's crusader-like tone on
    > the site. I read it, and I get the sense that Mr. Ross is assuming that his
    > readers cannot form their own opinions about the groups, that they should
    > just automatically assume everything about them is bad because he says so.
    > In a sense, it seems not that far removed from some of the ideas he finds
    > issue with.
    >
    > I replied to your post with the reasons why I felt I had positive
    > experiences at Satchidananda Ashram. I am sorry you thought I was coming
    > across as superior - I can assure you, I am far from that. I consider
    > myself to be a very down to earth individual, with a well rounded background
    > because I've listened to a lot of ideas and decided which were right for me.
    > I also have a strong sense of helping others through my volunteer work
    > (which falls under the category of karma yoga). Most recently, that's been
    > in a soup kitchen environment, but I've also worked for child abuse
    > prevention, World AIDS Day, and at hospitals. I admit that I clean out my
    > closets every three months or so because I don't like having anything extra
    > when other people have nothing at all. I'd rather wash one set of sheets
    > and replace them on the same day than keep three sets and know that
    > somewhere there's a victim of domestic violence who just ran off with
    > nothing and needs things like that. I even said in my earlier post that I'd
    > like to do more than I have, so I'm definitely not putting myself ahead of
    > anyone else. I've had some bad experiences in my own past, but I've been
    > able to become a bigger hearted person because of it, which is where I get
    > my character trait to listen to everyone before forming an opinion, even if
    > it turns out that my initial instinct about disagreeing with them becomes
    > true.
    >
    > I don't look down on anyone. I took my last job in the States as an
    > administrative assistant at my local jail because I wanted the challenge of
    > ensuring the needs of the inmates were met and helping others to see that
    > they're not just a low-rate class of people that is simply shut away and
    > forgotten about. They may have commited crimes, but they are still
    > someone's sons, daughters, husbands, friends, and siblings, and they still
    > need to eat, bathe, sleep, etc. Sometimes it's easy for people to forget
    > that part and dismiss them as scum of the earth....until someone they know
    > is arrested and locked up. I don't think you can find fault with my using
    > that experience as a way to strengthen my compassion. It's easier to write
    > off those who hurt us than it is to find forgiveness and the desire to help
    > them. I'm not perfect in that regard either - that's why I try to make
    > myself better.
    >
    > My visits to the ashram were not that different - just another way to find
    > another perspective that might make me look at things in a new light. I
    > don't mention the jail or my volunteer work to make myself look like a great
    > person (I just think I'm a caring one), it's just to say that I have a
    > balance of all kinds of experiences that have taught me some good lessons,
    > not just one ashram, although I greatly enjoyed my time there. Perhaps
    > that's the problem with message boards and websites - it's one-dimensional c
    > ommunication that fails to let the reader get the whole picture, but merely
    > a small representation of someone's thoughts and ideas.
    >
    > I don't doubt that any of the groups on Mr. Ross's site have had followers
    > that lost their sense of perspective, but honestly, the same can be said for
    > some of the most accepted organized religions as well. I have known devout
    > Christians who have immersed themselves in their religious life and
    > restructured their existence completely around the church and church
    > activities. Sometimes that meant leaving friends and family behind, and
    > donating huge sums of money, as well, yet because it was a Catholic or
    > Pentecostal church, somehow it was different than a Hare Krishna or a
    > Moonie. One of my former work supervisors for a medium sized corporation
    > used to preach the Book of Revelation to me and tell me that my ATM card was
    > evil because it was a mark of the beast. That doesn't mean that I have to
    > cut up my bank cards, but there *are* some valuable messages in reading the
    > Revelation text.
    >
    > To me, it's a matter of balance, and integrating positive ideas into the
    > rest of my life. I don't think anyone can measure "true spirituality." I
    > don't have a problem with homosexuality or someone else deciding to have an
    > abortion, for example, yet the Catholic church does. That doesn't mean I'm
    > going to rank them at the bottom of a list, although I'm not going to march
    > with them either. They've got some other teachings that I do integrate into
    > my overall spiritual beliefs after spending 12 years in a Catholic school.
    > The yoga gurus are spreading an ancient message for the most part. There's
    > variations in such ways as whether to practice asana in a steaming hot
    > sauna-like room as in Bikram yoga, whether it should be a more physically
    > challenging activity as in the Ashtanga discipline, or whether it is more of
    > a personally relaxing activity as in the Integral Yoga based on Sivananda
    > and Satchidananda's view. But the underlying yoga sutras are the same, and
    > I find them to contain a lot of good lessons.
    >
    > As I said, I never lived at the ashram, I only took good experiences and
    > messages from it. I'm a pretty introverted person, so I don't have many
    > close friends, but I do have one who was in residence at the ashram for two
    > teacher training sessions, and she has now taken that knowledge to help her
    > with her own practice as well as teaching two classes a week at the Integral
    > Yoga Institute in New York City to supplement her elementary school
    > teacher's income. She also had good experiences without losing herself. I
    > will say that most people I know would have danger signs arise if they felt
    > their personal choices were being skewed along the way; in fact, one lady
    > did leave a women's retreat program on the first day because she felt
    > uncomfortable and I respected that. That doesn't mean I think badly of
    > someone else who found themselves lost and didn't see it coming, but that
    > can happen anywhere, not just at Satchidananda Ashram.
    >
    > I think it's safe to say that anyone who lives at any ashram or religious
    > community, especially one that is geographically distant as Yogaville is (25
    > minutes from the closest city), knows they are going to immerse themselves
    > in the experience. It's one thing to attend a Sunday church service, then
    > head home with the family. It's another to decide to physically move to the
    > center of a spiritual community. It's not that I think I have superior
    > decision making or freedom, but I do think that some of the people who make
    > that decision aren't running "to" something, they're running "away" from
    > something else. A few people purposefully immersed themselves into every
    > part of the community that would accept them because that was what they
    > needed at the time, but the vast majority of the people I knew stayed for a
    > few weeks or months, then went back home again. It was usually a new group
    > of residents each time I visited, with the exception of the monastics.
    >
    > Anyway, I didn't think I was raving about the ashram. Just giving my
    > reasons why I liked it there. If it were an unlimited discussion, you'd
    > know that there's plenty of other things that have touched my life in a good
    > way, but the topic at hand was Yogaville. It doesn't belong on a Canada
    > Immigration board anyway, so I'll close this post. I just didn't want to be
    > disrespectful and ignore you.
    >
    > Renee
    >
    > --
    > Inland Spouse Timeline so far:
    > 19 Feb 2003: Moved to Calgary from U.S. on 6 month TRV
    > 12 May 2003: Did medicals in Calgary
    > 20 June 2003: Applied for TRV extension
    > 5 July 2003: Wedding Date
    > 17 July 2003: CIC received inland spouse PR application
    > 15 Aug 2003: Received 6 month TRV extension
    > 20 Aug 2003: CIC request for work history dates (which were sent with
    > application)
    > 21 Aug 2003: CIC received work history reply by overnight post
    > 4 Sept 2003: CIC e-Client finally shows "in process"
    > "Sarah Ostrinsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Renee,
    > >
    > > One other point that I failed to note previously. While I mentioned
    > > that the practices of Yogaville obviously belie their "spiritual"
    > > message, I failed to note that even with respect to their spiritual
    > > message, they seem to be viewed by the general public as lacking in
    > > true spirituality. For example, a New Zealand website
    > > (www.inthelight.co.nz) that rates 1,300 gurus and spiritual teachers
    > > rates Yogaville and Satchidananda at the bottom (lowest 17) along with
    > > such notables as Sri Chimnoy and E.Ron Hubbard. Perhaps this is
    > > another point that you should consider when mentioning integral yoga
    > > with such reverence.
    > >
    > >
    > > "Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<uIRwb.494653$6C4.369562@pd7tw1no>...
    > > > I've seen the Rick Ross site and the Catherine site as well. With all
    > due
    > > > respect, I have a mind of my own, as well as the ability to take some
    > good
    > > > lessons taught at the ashram to heart without changing my entire life to
    > > > revolve around them.
    > > >
    > > > I've been to Satchidananda Ashram numerous times, and yes, I've learned
    > a
    > > > lot about the Indian culture and the Hindu religion there. There were
    > > > Indian traditions observed while I was visiting, including a beautiful
    > > > birthday celebration for a respected 80 year old mother. There were
    > also
    > > > individuals from India there that I met and learned from on each of my
    > > > visits, plus a friend who was in residence at Yogaville and had traveled
    > to
    > > > India regularly. Not at all the same as actually traveling to India
    > myself,
    > > > but it was a good opportunity to learn.
    > > >
    > > > Yes, they embrace the belief that "truth is one, paths are many," so the
    > > > Lotus shrine is indeed dedicated to all the world's religions with an
    > > > additional section for those that we may not know about but still have
    > > > value. The times I visited the ashram included a scriptural study on
    > > > Thursday evenings. Those studies focused on one religion per session,
    > but
    > > > included all the major religions over the course of a year for the
    > benefit
    > > > of those in residence at the ashram. Twice I was introduced to the
    > Bhagavad
    > > > Gita and the Hindu faith, and it inspired me to learn more on my own. I
    > > > don't claim to know everything about Hinduism or any other religion -
    > and I
    > > > don't practice any one religion. I consider myself a spiritual person.
    > I
    > > > want to be a well educated individual who is open-minded to all kinds of
    > > > ideas. I see value in all kinds of ideas, and I don't dismiss something
    > > > just because it's foreign to me, nor do I exclude everything else and
    > > > dismiss others' beliefs.
    > > >
    > > > There are some people in the Yogaville environment that I personally
    > think
    > > > have immersed themselves too much into the teachings of Satchidananda.
    > But
    > > > those are not my choices to make. My choice is to use the teachings of
    > > > Sivananda and Satchidananda as guidelines for living, not to leave my
    > entire
    > > > life behind and denounce anything that goes against them.
    > > >
    > > > For example, both gurus preach non-violence in the form of
    > vegetarianism,
    > > > yet I am not a vegetarian. I do not chant and meditate daily, and I
    > don't
    > > > get to practice asana as often as I'd like, but I still recognize the
    > value
    > > > of all those things and I do still practice them when I can. I do find
    > the
    > > > yoga sutras to contain a lot of wisdom. Contrary to Mr. Ross's belief,
    > I
    > > > don't think mantra repetition is brainwashing; I find it to be a great
    > way
    > > > to center myself on the days when I need to feel calm again. I balance
    > all
    > > > those yogic teachings in the grand scope of the rest of my life, as it
    > is
    > > > all important.
    > > >
    > > > I find the tenets of most of the disciplines of yoga to be profound, and
    > I
    > > > enjoyed the times I was able to visit the ashram to learn more about
    > them.
    > > > The majority of the guests there with me for the programs or short
    > personal
    > > > retreats were the same way. Many of them were practicing Catholics,
    > > > Buddhists, Jews, or members of other religions. They were able to
    > balance
    > > > the messages of the ashram with their other beliefs with no problem.
    > > >
    > > > Certainly I cannot speak about the inside story at the ashram because I
    > > > would not have moved there permanently. I met some wonderful people in
    > > > residence, some who took monastic vows, and others who just wanted to
    > better
    > > > themselves. If there have been incidences of abuse or alientation from
    > > > families, then I am truly sorry.
    > > >
    > > > For myself, I looked at Satchidananda as a human teacher only, not a
    > > > demi-God. I don't believe that his entire message should be discounted
    > > > because some individuals lost perspective in their quest for the truth.
    > > > Certainly, he's never claimed to have personally invented any of what he
    > > > teaches. One needs only to look around Sivananda Hall to observe the
    > > > respect for the original saints and teachers from many religions.
    > > > Satchidananda claims only to have come from India upon request from his
    > > > teacher, Sivananda, to extend the teachings to other parts of the world.
    > > >
    > > > On a couple of the times I attended satsang at the ashram, Satchidananda
    > > > responded to questions with the reminder that he is a teacher only and
    > not
    > > > God. Some people seemed to believe otherwise, but the impression I got
    > was
    > > > that Satchidananda discouraged that. I never saw him deify himself; I
    > saw
    > > > the opposite, despite the fact that some people seemed to want to put
    > him on
    > > > a pedestal as more than just a teacher.
    > > >
    > > > Perhaps you posted what you did because you had a bad experience
    > yourself.
    > > > I don't know, but if so, I'm sorry you went through it. However, I
    > believe
    > > > that many people learn a great deal of worthwhile lessons at Yogaville
    > > > without expense to their regular life. I find the Rick Ross site to be
    > > > pretty obnoxious, to be honest. I am open-minded and comfortable enough
    > in
    > > > my beliefs to have read through a good deal of it, but Mr. Ross seems to
    > > > find fault with everybody. There is the issue of his own past and
    > criminal
    > > > history as well. We all have our own opinions, so I will not deny him
    > the
    > > > right to his. However, I came away from Yogaville with positive
    > experiences
    > > > and without being brainwashed, and I'm a better person for it.
    > > >
    > > > Best wishes.
    > > >
    > > > Renee
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > Inland Spouse Timeline so far:
    > > > 19 Feb 2003: Moved to Calgary from U.S. on 6 month TRV
    > > > 12 May 2003: Did medicals in Calgary
    > > > 20 June 2003: Applied for TRV extension
    > > > 5 July 2003: Wedding Date
    > > > 17 July 2003: CIC received inland spouse PR application
    > > > 15 Aug 2003: Received 6 month TRV extension
    > > > 20 Aug 2003: CIC request for work history dates (which were sent with
    > > > application)
    > > > 21 Aug 2003: CIC received work history reply by overnight post
    > > > 4 Sept 2003: CIC e-Client finally shows "in process"
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Sarah Ostrinsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > Renee,
    > > > >
    > > > > It's fascinating that you say that you have learned much Indian
    > > > > culture from the Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia. Interestingly, the
    > > > > ashram professes to embrace all religions and cultures, not one. In
    > > > > fact, the Lotus temple itself is supposedly a shrine to the unity of
    > > > > all religious experiences. Is this not true? Further, some people say
    > > > > that the Ashram is far from a true Indian experience. See
    > > > > http://www.freecatherine.com and
    > > > > http://www.rickross.com/reference/yo...gaville69.html
    > > > > for additional details in this regard.
    > > > >
    > > > > "Renee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<JEowb.486227$9l5.116353@pd7tw2no>...
    > > > > > Good question. As someone who has practiced Integral yoga since
    > 1996
    > and
    > > > > > gotten a lot of insight to the Indian culture during several visits
    > to
    > the
    > > > > > Satchidananda Ashram in Virginia, I've wondered the same thing.
    > From
    > what I
    > > > > > can see, India has a lot of great qualities.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I'm looking forward to some replies from the perspective of those
    > who
    > know
    > > > > > both India and North America better than I do.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Renee
    > > > > >

Bhaskar

    > >
    > > what i would like to know why do US and UK citizens come to canada
    >

Even I would like to know especially US Citizens unless the person
likes to smoke weed (i heard that it is legal in canada now....Dubya's
govt was angry when canada was about to allow it to happen ???)

I see no reason why US citizens would like to take canadian PR...and
take more tax liability....US citizens can anyway work with TN visa.

Bhaskar

    > Samanta wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > what i would like to know why do US and UK citizens come to canada
    >
    > The neighbor's pasture is always greener.

I can see one more reason.....

Perhaps they do not have adequate insurance cover in the US and their
medication bills are high ....so they want to move to canada
permanently
to reduce their medication bill.

Webcrawler

Bhaskar --

It is perfectly legal to order your prescription drugs from Canada at a
fraction of the cost.
Of course, the US pharma companies are mad at this practice and are
up-in-arms to try and stop this.
The recent medicare bill also tries to take steps in that direction.

Of course, if one has *no* insurance coverage in the US, then the system is
brutal because even going to doctor visits can cost an arm and leg.

"Bhaskar" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > > Samanta wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > > what i would like to know why do US and UK citizens come to canada
    > >
    > > The neighbor's pasture is always greener.
    > I can see one more reason.....
    > Perhaps they do not have adequate insurance cover in the US and their
    > medication bills are high ....so they want to move to canada
    > permanently
    > to reduce their medication bill.

Robert

"WebCrawler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Bhaskar --
    > It is perfectly legal to order your prescription drugs from Canada at a
    > fraction of the cost.
AFAIK it is illegal
But it is a law that is not being enforced.

Webcrawler

I think it is not what you would call "fully legal" - but I don't think it
is 100% illegal either.
Of course, the US health industry will have all of us believe that it is
illegal.
In particular, it is the FDA which is preventing this practice because of
its close "association" with the pharma companies.

I know that the consumer activist Clark Howard has discussed this several
times in his shows and his books.
In fact, recently one US insurance company struck a deal with the AARP to
cover the cost of prescription drugs ordered thru Canada for maintenance
type medicines.
So it is certainly gaining acceptance.

Search Clark's websites for more details and links about this.

"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "WebCrawler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Bhaskar --
    > >
    > > It is perfectly legal to order your prescription drugs from Canada at a
    > > fraction of the cost.
    > AFAIK it is illegal
    > But it is a law that is not being enforced.

Robert

Its either Illegal or legal !

That's like saying I was 20k over the limit but I didn't break the speeding
law

From a Canadian point of view I do believe there is no law being broken.
This subject has seen the attention of a large amount of media coverage all
of which states that from an "american" point of view it "is illegal"

I do believe that the monopoly of the american drug companies will be broken
eventually by cause of their own greed.

I would agree with you that it is gaining more and more acceptance.

"WebCrawler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > I think it is not what you would call "fully legal" - but I don't think it
    > is 100% illegal either.
    > Of course, the US health industry will have all of us believe that it is
    > illegal.
    > In particular, it is the FDA which is preventing this practice because of
    > its close "association" with the pharma companies.
    > I know that the consumer activist Clark Howard has discussed this several
    > times in his shows and his books.
    > In fact, recently one US insurance company struck a deal with the AARP to
    > cover the cost of prescription drugs ordered thru Canada for maintenance
    > type medicines.
    > So it is certainly gaining acceptance.
    > Search Clark's websites for more details and links about this.

Bhaskar

    > It is perfectly legal to order your prescription drugs from Canada at a
    > fraction of the cost.

Its not legal yet...FDA is all for pharma companies. They closed down
one prescription drug retailer in US recently.


    > Of course, the US pharma companies are mad at this practice and are
    > up-in-arms to try and stop this.
    > The recent medicare bill also tries to take steps in that direction.

Pharma companies specially prevented addition of a provision that
prevents
government from negociating with the pharma companies something that
canada
and europe does to keep the costs in control.

    > Of course, if one has *no* insurance coverage in the US, then the system is
    > brutal because even going to doctor visits can cost an arm and leg.
    >
    > "Bhaskar" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > > Samanta wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > what i would like to know why do US and UK citizens come to canada
    > > >
    > > > The neighbor's pasture is always greener.
    > >
    > > I can see one more reason.....
    > >
    > > Perhaps they do not have adequate insurance cover in the US and their
    > > medication bills are high ....so they want to move to canada
    > > permanently
    > > to reduce their medication bill.

R Obert

Mr Lee <member17362@british_expats.com> wrote:

    >Originally posted by Samanta
    >> what i would like to know why do US and UK citizens come to canada
    >>
    >Well, I'm not there yet. But I know exactly why I want to come.
    >Apart from the usual - following Canadian partner, fancy a change
    >partway through my life, etc I want to go for the following reasons:
    >- More space. I live in a small terraced house in a large town near a
    > large city. It's getting very claustrophobic.
    >- I like the outdoors. Don't get me wrong, I love the British
    > countryside and will miss trekking over the Pennine Moors and up Welsh
    > hills and Mountains whenever the fancy takes me, but the lure of
    > endless mountains, lakes and forests is proving irresistible.
    >- I don't want to live in this country anymore because it's dirty and
    > we're breeding a generation of selfish young thugs. Of course the
    > crime is overplayed, but I'm sick of abusive kids on street corners
    > and outside shops. I'm sick of the rubbish blowing around our streets
    > because so many are too lazy to use a bin.
    >- I'm ashamed of voting for this Government. They took us into a war we
    > didn't want and have now made us a target for those who had no issue
    > with us.

Yeah, pity we in the US stood by you during the second world war ...
seeing how it made us a target for Germany and Japan.

Selfish jerk.

( modify address for return email )

www.numbersusa.com
www.americanpatrol.com

Robert

Taken Your Advice Literal. Robert Removed This Name from seen posters and
added to KILLFILE.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Mr Lee <member17362@british_expats.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >Originally posted by Samanta
    > >
    > >> what i would like to know why do US and UK citizens come to canada
    > >>
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Well, I'm not there yet. But I know exactly why I want to come.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Apart from the usual - following Canadian partner, fancy a change
    > >partway through my life, etc I want to go for the following reasons:
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >- More space. I live in a small terraced house in a large town near a
    > > large city. It's getting very claustrophobic.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >- I like the outdoors. Don't get me wrong, I love the British
    > > countryside and will miss trekking over the Pennine Moors and up Welsh
    > > hills and Mountains whenever the fancy takes me, but the lure of
    > > endless mountains, lakes and forests is proving irresistible.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >- I don't want to live in this country anymore because it's dirty and
    > > we're breeding a generation of selfish young thugs. Of course the
    > > crime is overplayed, but I'm sick of abusive kids on street corners
    > > and outside shops. I'm sick of the rubbish blowing around our streets
    > > because so many are too lazy to use a bin.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >- I'm ashamed of voting for this Government. They took us into a war we
    > > didn't want and have now made us a target for those who had no issue
    > > with us.
    > Yeah, pity we in the US stood by you during the second world war ...
    > seeing how it made us a target for Germany and Japan.
    > Selfish jerk.
    > ( modify address for return email )
    > www.numbersusa.com
    > www.americanpatrol.com

Stephen Macdougall

"Bhaskar" <[email protected]> wrote

    > I see no reason why US citizens would like to take canadian PR

There are lots of reasons. Canada and the United States are very similar,
but there are significant differences. I'm an American social worker who
will probably start this crazy immigration process in January. Why?
Because the things that are different about Canada are more reflective of my
own personal values.

I find Canada's political process much more interesting than the American
political process. Abortion, for the most part, is a non-issue in Canadian
political theater. The whole "morality" thing that seems to plague American
political debate at all levels of government aren't anywhere near as
prominent in Canadian politics. Censorship is almost nil in Canada, which
shows a REAL commitment to free speech. While not exactly perfect, I
appreciate Canada's commitment to public health care. I love Canada's
uncompromising commitment to human rights. The stance Canada took on the
war (not going in without the UN) is the same I wish the US would have
taken. In short, I am more inclined to agree with Canadian positions than
not.

Canada, too me, seems like it's much kinder than the US. I always feel
safer whenever I'm in Canada, which is an important consideration for
whenever I think about having a family. Canada seems more like the society
in which I was raised than the society in which live, and I'm not even 30.
Parental supervision isn't a matter of life and death, and that's so
refreshing.

There are also other, perhaps less important in the big picture reasons why
I want to move. CBC radio and television are what I wish NPR and PBS were.
Radio shows like Definately Not The Opera make the drive from London to
Windsor seem much too short. Television shows like Red Green, anything with
Rick Mercer, and The National make staying in an enjoyable experience. The
only sport I love is hockey. I love Canadian comedy (Kids In The Hall, Bob
& Doug, Puppets who Kill). I'm a fan of the Guess Who, Tragically Hip, Neil
Young, and Gordon Lightfoot. I almost exclusively drink Canadian beer, and
always bring back beer I can't get in the US from Canada. Ditto for candy
(especially Cadbury Crunchie). I'm a big ginger ale drinker. Pizza Pizza
has the best pizza I've ever had. And, I love the Canadian flag.

In the end, it's a matter of preferences.

    >and take more tax liability

Listen, we pay a hell of a lot in private insurance premiums. I've been
working for 3.5 years. In that short time, my premiums went from $50 to $66
to $92 to $85 every other week, on top of what is paid out to Medicare and
Social Security. In the end, it all evens out. But, there are more reasons
to move to another country than.
--
Stephen MacDougall

Good day.