JAJ

People can be refused entry for a variety of reasons - airlines are not fined provided they have abided with regulations. And nowhere can I see any *regulation* that obliges an airline to check that a passenger has a return ticket in order to transport them to Canada - as long as they have checked the passenger has a visa free passport that should be enough to cover themselves. The rules are different for the US, but we're talking about Canada.


Some people do have legitimate reasons for travelling on a one way ticket without PR. For example, some work permit applications get completed at the port of entry (especially for US citizens, for example).


Jeremy

JAJ

But why would the airline be fined if the passenger has a visa free passport? Where does it say that carriers have an obligation that goes beyond checking for a visa-free passport if the passenger has one of these?

Clearly any airline can impose any policy it likes - however without any sign of it being a CIC requirement then passengers have got the right to complain. Or fly with another airline.

People don't go round with a big "PR" stamp on their foreheads. If someone shows up to check-in and they have a visa waiver passport, how on earth is the airline going to know they are a 'PR' or not?


If Immigration refused the person entry, it would be a problem for that person. Not the airline, as the airline has complied with its obligations.

But it would have complied with its obligations anyway just by checking for a visa-free passport without making a fuss over a return ticket.

If someone can show me a regulation that insists carriers check for return tickets, then I'll happily admit I'm mistaken.

It can be a red flag but some people have a legitimate reason. That's between them and Immigration to discuss.

Ironically if you think about it a return ticket in itself proves absolutely nothing about intentions, as someone planning to overstay could just as easily buy a return ticket with no intention of using it.

Jeremy

ozinca

I totally disagree with you, go buy yourself a one way ticket anywhere in the world and try and board the plane. If you do not have a valid legal status in the country you intend to land, you WILL NOT get on the plane. Good luck trying.

That's my opinion and I stand by it 100%

Ozinca

JAJ

How do people get onto flights when they will process an application for a work permit at the port of entry? Happens every day with US citizens coming to Canada.




Jeremy

Biiiiink

That's what I'm asking - if CIC regs say all PRs since Dec 31 2003 *must* show PR card when boarding an aircraft, what happens if they don't? Why must they?

I'm not a PR but I've had every page of my passport gone through at most check-ins recently. I'd expect a cancelled PR visa would be spotted, they're highly visible being semi-rigid on flicking through and a whole page in size, admittedly that's not in a passport forever but with British ones being valid for 10yrs there's a chance it'll be visible for a good few years to come. Also things such as place of issue could flag up where a person resides, my Canadian one issued in London was acceptable to a customs official that I could have my GST refund for example - i.e. showed that I most likely resided in the UK.


I'm not saying CIC insist upon it, I'm saying at least one airline I know of will not carry you without proof of entitlement to remain on a one-way ticket. They provide a service, they can impose conditions like that as they will. I suspect it gives them a greater sense of security as well as increasing their ticket sales. You say Air Canada doesn't ask for PR card, I imagine they're not concerned with return tickets either. If you don't have a PR card you should ensure your booking is with them.


Yes, maybe, but you needn't think you'll be able to convince a check-in clerk at an overseas airport of that. I bet you won't!

Agreed, I've binned many unused return sectors over the years.

JAJ

You're confusing two issues here. One is carrier's liability - in other words what documentation does CIC oblige a commercial carrier (eg airline) to check before transporting someone to Canada, on pain of being fined.

CIC have stated that a PR Card or Travel Document is the standard evidence for PRs. However since a visa waiver passport is also an acceptable document *in itself* this in a way overrides the normal CIC instruction.

It's not stated anywhere that I can see in the Regulations (again - I'm happy to be corrected) that it's compulsory for PRs to present a PR Card to the airline. What it does say in the Regulations (albeit with unclear wording) is that the PR Card and Travel Document are both 'prescribed documents' for carriers liability purposes. But so is a visa-waiver passport.

The IRPA and Regulations take precedence over CIC pronouncements.

The other issue is what's needed to get admitted as a PR *at the port of entry*. A PR arriving without a PR Card/Travel Document will still be admitted by Immigration (which is why the PR Card is not necessary on the land frontier) but should be prepared for a lengthy grilling/delay at secondary inspection while his status is verified.

It's not me saying it, it's Air Canada saying it (with my emphasis):
http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelin...traveldoc.html

"As of December 31, 2003, permanent residents from a non visa- waiver country who are returning to Canada will be required to provide the wallet-sized plastic Permanent Resident Card or a visa to re-enter Canada as the IMM1000 Record of Landing will no longer be acceptable. Without a valid PR Card or visa these passengers will not be permitted to board the aircraft and will need to contact the nearest Canadian embassy or consulate to obtain a limited use travel document to re-enter Canada: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/visas.html#exemptions."


As I keep pointing out, quite a few people legitimately travel to Canada on one way tickets without being PRs. US citizens going for NAFTA work permits being one category, as I believe these get processed at the port of entry.

Jeremy

ozinca

Well, they have the documentation with them to prove that they are applying for a work permit. This is proof that their intentions are clear and that they have evidence to back up the reason for a one way ticket.

Ozinca

JAJ

Airlines are not in a position to check this kind of documentation. Nor are they obliged to.

Another group who tend to arrive on one-way tickets are those intending to do an inland Family Class application as a spouse.

And as for returning PRs - if you have a visa waiver passport, it's obvious from the Air Canada website that they won't ask for the PR Card or Travel Document. A cancelled IMM1000 or COPR is handy to have though, especially when you get to Immigration.


Jeremy

tallperson

The other issue is what's needed to get admitted as a PR *at the port of entry*. A PR arriving without a PR Card/Travel Document will still be admitted by Immigration (which is why the PR Card is not necessary on the land frontier) but should be prepared for a lengthy grilling/delay at secondary inspection while his status is verified.

Hi Jeremy

So would you say that we can re-enter without my son having his PR card? Myself and daughter have our cards and he has his crossed out visa in his passport. If I receive his COPR back in time I can go to the consulate in London and get him a temp. travel doc. but if I don't receive it in time should I be worried?

Thanks
TP

dbd33

Watch that. I had a Canadian passport that was stolen. The procedure for getting a replacement, for someone not born in Canada, is complicated and entails visiting a police station. I found it easier to use my British passport and citizenship card to get around until the Canadian passport expired and the onerous procedure no longer applied. That was before 911, it would be more difficult now as sometimes they ask for a passport at the US border. Better to guard it carefully.

<wonders where the current one is>

dbd33

I believe this to be true. In fact, even if you do have legal status in the country to which you're flying it's as well to get a return ticket. It's not the legal status that's important but the check in person's perception of that status. If you have any sort of documentation they don't see every day it's best to have the return ticket so as to seem ordinary. The clerk doesn't want to know about every permutation of allowable visa.

For example, next week I'm going to the US to pick up a car. I intend to drive back. That's perfectly legitimate but, not wanting any hassle, I've purchased a return ticket. It helps that return tickets are cheaper than one-way ones but, still, it'd be worth $200 for the peace.

John Thom Don

So just to check Andrew,

I am returning UK to Canada 16th August Air Canada. Air Canada have already confirmed they'll let me on the flight as I have a valid UK passport.

If I arrive at Canadian immigration with my passport and my IMM5292 form will I be OK.

Should I take my SIN & Drivers Licence too as extra proof?

Thanks

John

MarkG

I don't know about today, but a few years ago I spent six months travelling around the world and had several one-way tickets making up that trip, and a couple of return tickets from countries I was visiting to other countries nearby (e.g Thailand->Singapore->Thailand) where I wasn't a resident of either country.

The _ONLY_ time the airline hassled me was for the final leg from America to London, when I'm a British citizen!

Biiiiink

Mark, I guess it's primarily western countries that watch for overstayers. Your lots of one-ways make up an onward ticket.

dbd33, I agree with you. Is this a first?! You can't argue intricacies of status and proof of same with check-in staff. Especially if they have declared to you in advance in writing their policy of "no return ticket with no proof of entitlement to remain = no boarding". And the one time I got a grilling on entering Canada (YYZ, Nov 2000 with British passport) sight of my return ticket was demanded by the officer.

JAJ, I haven't read IRPA nevermind begun to comprehend the legalspeak therein but a skim of their helpdesk queries shows that "As of Dec 31,2003 it will be a legal requirement for PRs flying on commercial airlines from international destinations to have a Permanent Resident Card" - so what does legal requirement mean in that context? I also see it paraphrased in the PR Card manual with the term "mandatory" replacing "legal requirement". Nowhere that I can see except here in this semi-relevant question below does whether you're a visa waiver national or not seem to be mentioned -

Question: Are persons from non-visa required countries required to obtain the"so-called" facilitation (note that there is no facilitation visa under IRPA - in the context of the PR Card, the correct term should be the travel document specified in A31(3)) TRV if they are outside of Canada on Dec 31 2003?? How will these people be dealt with at the POE? Example raised was a US citizen, PR in Canada, seeking entry at land border, with no card. Do they need to attend a consulate and get a Facilitation visa??

Answer: Person from non-visa required countries will be required to obtain the A31(3) travel document if they are outside of Canada on Dec 31, 2003. If they do not obtain one, they will be dealt with as a Foreign National when seeking entry and will have to satisfy the IO that they meet the requirements of a Permanent Resident.

This suggests to me that landed PR cannot pass him/herself off as a visitor by use of a visa-waiver passport without declaring themselves as a PR. If it is a legal requirement to declare this at boarding and you don't, are the airlines being fined? Only if they miss a cancelled PR visa or other obvious signs? Why are Air Canada stating they have a don't ask, don't tell policy for visa waiver nationals? If this is permitted, it must be in the manuals somewhere?

Do you have any links to what airlines' obligations are? I wouldn't know where to look all that up but it sounded like you had something to hand on their liability?

With regard to one way tickets, I thought for family class inland that proof of willingness and ability to leave Canada if application was rejected was required. This may be funds to pay for a ticket, credit card or such, but more usually will be an open-jaw return sector ticket (along with other factors of course). I've agreed with you that return tickets don't mean you will actually leave the country but what easier way can you prove an intent to depart? And not risk being denied boarding by the airlines (I've just scanned the archive and many posters were saying travel agents wouldn't sell them one ways anyway...).

I know PR card is not necessary at the land frontier, that point seems to have been missed in the helpdesk question above, but only 4wks ago Mr B was asked to produce his. This was especially surprising as his cancelled PR visa is still in his passport, he landed <6mths ago and cannot conceivably have failed to meet the residency requirement. I'm sure the officer would have let him in if he'd not had the card, but why ask?

babsi

Been on 4 different flights with 4 different airlines from London to Toronto and every single time they ask for documentation if you have a 1 way ticket.

Always make sure I have it because from past experience I was not allowed to board the plane as I didn't have it.

Going again in September and am sure it is the same procedure.

Air Canada ask for the PR card, experienced that myself.