apfairhurst

Hello Andrew, please can you confirm that I have awarded myself the correct points for the skilled worker application.

Education from age 4 to 16 plus 1 year Youth Training scheme and 1 year college diploma. Therefore one year diploma plus at least 13 yrs full time study. 15 points
Language. English Fluent 16 points.
French. 6 points. I lived and worked in Paris for 2 years. I have documented my proficiency in French and enclosed a letter from my French employer to confirm it. I have chosen not to attend a TEF exam because I feel the written documentation should be enough.
Work experience. I am a senior Financial Planning Consultant with 10 years continual work experience. 21 points.
Age. I am aged 37. 10 points.
Arranged employment. No one will offer me employment until I arrive. 0 points.
Relative in Canada. My Wife has a Sister living in Calgary who is a Canadian citizen. 5 points.

I need some confirmation that the CHC London will award me 15 points for my education and 6 points for french as a second language.

Thank you for your help and I look forward to hearing from you.

Andrew Miller

Sorry, but not enough info to confirm your education and language points.

Education - from age 4? You started grade 1 at age 4? If it was kindergarten and/or pre-school then it doesn't count. Only years of education from grade 1 forward count.

French - on what basis you awarded yourself 6 points? The best you can get without TEF test is basic proficiency which will result in 2 points for French.

apfairhurst

Hello Andrew

Age 4 to 5 will have been pre school so age 5 to 16 was equivalent to stage 1. After leaving school at age 16 I continued my studies under a one year Government funded training scheme caller YTS which stands for youth training scheme. After one year I became qualified at BHS level (British Horse Society) in a trade working with and training horses. After this I went to Agricultural College for one year to study agriculture and received a National Certificate in Agriculture which is equivalent to a one year diploma.

For French I documented that I could speak and listen in French at a Moderate level and that my ability to read and write was very basic. This was achieved by working in France at a show jumping yard teaching people to ride horses.

If I award myself 15 points for education i.e a one year diploma and 13 years of study instead of 14 years, and 2 points for French, this will give us a total of 69 points. Would you agree?

Andrew Miller

I don't know yet if I can agree. You will get desired points only if your education credentials will be acceptable to award you 15 points - I don't know if they will be without knowing all about them and institutions that granted them (post elementary and secondary school certificates of course). You may get 15, 12, 5 or 0 points.

I strongly suggest you find job offer that will be approved by HRSDC as even with 69 points your chances are likely next to none, even if pass mark is not raised before your case is assessed. The work experience you have is probably selling financial products (insurance etc.), regardless what your business card says as you don't have any education required to perform in any serious financial consulting or management occupation. If I am correct in my assumption about your job then without solid, HRSDC approved job offer processing officer will likely determine that you don't have enough chances for economical establishment in Canada based on R76(3) here:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2002-227/sec76.html

And of course if pass mark goes up (IMHO it is 99% chance that it will before your case is assessed) you won't have enough points without HRSDC approved job offer anyway.

It may sound harsh, but it is reality and I'm not here to give anyone super-optimistic view seen through pink glasses. Instead I always state as I see circumstances as they are, without painting anything black or pink.

woofwoof

Hello
If your case hasn't been looked at yet it might be worth getting in touch with the teaching dept that ran the YTS and confirming that it is post secondary and what it might equate to in standard education. If they can put that in writing on headed paper for you then you can send it to the CHC as evidence, it will save them trying to work it out.
I remember that the YTS scheme was about when I left school, but I can't remember if you had to complete your standard 11 years of education before being allowed on it........(this making it post secondary)......It might be worth doing a bit of digging to claim that 1 year as education.

apfairhurst

Hello Andrew. Many thanks for you help and advice so far. I must point out that our applications were sent in 2 years ago and we have a July 04 AOR with a file number. We received a letter from the CHC London in December saying they hoped to start assessing our application by the end of March 06 so hopefully they will not increase the points by then.

1) I have confirmed that I started full time education in England at age 4.5
2) The YTS Government training course should be recognised by the CHC because many applicants probably continued there education after school in this way.
3) Financial Planners is a recognised and required occupation under the CHC website ref 1114 and I have an ex college who received his VISA to live in Vancouver last September so they cant turn me down for the occupation.
4) Re getting a job. Believe me, I have been in contact with every insurance company/Bank in Calgary and they have all said, great resume, we see no reason why you will not find employment here but we cannot offer you anything until you get hear.

I am only starting to question my points at this stage because I have recently started reading threads on this forum. I was initially under the impression that the CHC review your points and if all is o.k they then issue you with an AOR. This I understand is incorrect so If they do not award us the points in the same way that I have, we are in trouble. Personally I cannot see why they would turn us down. We are a family of 5 all of which will become tax payers. I have always been in work in a professional environment and we are taking over $500,000 with us. This is enough to buy a house mortgage free and live for over a year without income until I find suitable employment.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Gray C

Alex

As you probably know from our discussions, we are in a similar boat. 23 July 2004 AOR, borderline on points like you, same profession, similar amount of money to take with us, and just keeping our fingers crossed that we are accepted.

Again, I know that it does not count for much, but I do not foresee we will be a burden on the Canadian system, because we want to buy mortgage free, invest some of our money for income (or buy a couple of properties for rental income) plus I can bring a regular income of approx CAN$ 15,000 per annum (indexed)

We are in the system, so it is just a case of wait and see. They either will, or will not, grant us PR and there is not much more I can do other than get a couple of extra points for French by doing the TEF exam.

Keep in touch and let us know how you get on. You should be hearing something any day now. Hopefully a call for medicals.

apfairhurst

Hello, nice to hear from you and I hope you are all well. Isn't this a horrible position to be in! Andrew if you can help to settle our nerves at this late stage of the application, it would be greatly appreciated.

Gray C

Alex

Have sent you a PM. Give me a call after 6.30pm, when convenient.

Graham

Andrew Miller

Your impression was wrong. AOR has absolutely nothing to do with points score or substance of the case. File is created and AOR is issued if received application meets minimum definition of application, nothing more.

Your application substance and points will be evaluated during the assessment stage and as result you will receive IA (initial assessment) letter telling you if interview is required or waived (if your case passes to next stage) or brutally telling you that sorry but you didn't meet selection criteria.

All selection and admissibility criteria must be met not only at the time of application but also at the time visa is issued if such criteria are different at that time:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor2002-227/sec77.html

I wasn't arguing that Financial Planners occupation is not a skilled occupation - I only pointed out to the fact that your job title is likely misleading (standard practice of insurance companies and others selling financial products) as you don't have at least Bachelor's degree in the field of financial planning, you are likely only a sales person selling financial products. Nothing wrong with that, but when it comes to the evaluation of your chances for success in Canada it will be considered. You may be very good in what you are doing in UK but it doesn't mean that you will be able to use your skills in Canada with same success as market here is totally different.

Unfortunately statictics show that only very small percentage of "financial planners" (insurance agents and other financial products salespeople) in Canada ever survive in this business - majority starve and change careers often. And this is what may be a concern of officer assessing your case. No offence to majority of hard working insurance agents in Canada, but the reality here is that most new recruits in this business are people who don't have skills to perform or to find any other job (especially new immigrants who suffer from "lack of Canadian work experience" syndrom when looking for employment). Thus we have unlimited supply of prospective insurance agents (and other financial products sales people) in Canada who in 90% fail in this business shortly after starting. They are also never employees in Canada, they are self-employed agents who earn commission, not a salary. So, all of that may be considered when evaluationg your chances.

But fact that you applied 2 years ago gives you chance to be assessed before any raise of pass mark occurs and let's hope that officer won't be concerned with your lack of other documented skills that are in demand in Canada.

apfairhurst

Hello Andrew

Everything you have told me seems to imply that we will be turned down which of course is not something I want to hear at this late stage. I find this incredible when I read articles in Canada News about carpet fitters and other trade workers with very little in savings being accepted. I work in a professional industry and have a great number of professional qualifications behind me. I am aware that I will need to retrain/qualify and or possibly change my occupation in Canada but this is something I am aware of and been expecting. For this reason we have saved enough money over the past 2 years so that we can survive for at least one year without income until I find work.

If we are turned down, which I believe you think will happen, what are my options. Can I appeal it and ask for a second file review and would employing an immigration lawyer be advisable. This or course is worse case scenario, because I cannot see why they would turn us down.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards.

Gray C

Andrew

We are in an almost identical situation. Do you think that by moving to The Maritimes, where salaries are much lower than most of the rest of Canada, we would be looked at more favourably. The reason I ask is that in conjunction with hopefully securing work in the Financial services sector, we also intend to buy properties to use as rental income (I accept that this can be variable and seasonal), plus the fact that I already get a small pension of CAN$ 15,000 per annum. I understand that in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, the average income is not much more than CAN $20,000 per annum, unless I am mistaken. We are a family of three (daughter aged 14)

We also intend to buy mortgage free.

Andrew Miller

No, I am not implying that you will be turned down, I am only telling you that your case may be assessed negatively for one or another reason mentioned if you are not lucky like your friend was.

There is no appeal from refusal of PR visa - the only route is a Judicial Review with federal Court if there is evidence that contested decision was made in error in or with disregard of the law.

But again, let's hope you are OK and you soon will get positive IA. If you want to make your application tiny bit stronger just in case officer wants to use substitute evaluation then add evidence that you have already searched for job, got positive replies and showing also preparation for taking all required exams to be able to sell financial products in Canada. Show that you are serious, done your homework, know what you are against and are willing, ready and able to go for it.

This additional evidence may be of some help (but not much) in case of pass mark going up and in such case you will need all help you may get. (see my PM reply to you for additional, short instruction).

Why you "find this incredible" when you read about tradespeople? This is fact of todays economy in Canada - we have huge shortage of skilled tradespeople with documented qualifications. It doesn't matter that they have no savings if employers are waiting for them with open arms and giving HRSDC approved job offers knowing that it may take few years before candidate gets PR status.

By the same token we have unlimited supply of candidates for salespeople in financial products market.

Andrew Miller

Not really as Maritimes have the highest unemployment rate in Canada. Moving there if you are entrepreneur who will create jobs will have advantage, but will not be looked at more favourably at all when you will be the one looking for job.

There will be not much market for newcomers into financial products sales, but hey - you never know, you may find your niche and be good at it.

daft batty

. what your definition of a profession, if its havgin you r own pool of clients then "tradespeople" have that very thing.

it sounds as if you think you are better than these needed carpet fitters