Trikky

in a recent article, Allinall (member7245@british_expats.com) said:

    > Canada can not allow inequality such us Polygamy.

Actually, with countries changing laws to permit same-sex marriages, it
is only a matter of time before someone challenges (and defeats) laws
preventing polygamous or incestuous marriages. Why do I say this? If one
group of 'two people who love each other' (i.e. Homosexuals) can get
married, is it right to discriminate against another group of 'two people
who love each other'.

If you (and I use 'you' in a general sense here, not toward any
particular person) want 'equal rights' for one group of people, then you
have to permit equal rights for all other groups, since to do otherwise
would be to permit the discrimination you were rallying against earlier.

I know that someone will say "oh, but that's different". It's not. You
have two people that love each other, outside of the 'traditional'
definition of marriage involving one man and one woman. If those two people
can get married, why can another two people - equally or perhaps more in
love - get married.

As far as immigration goes, since Canada is permitting same-sex couples
to immigrate, then it will be only a matter of time until a court victory
will permit polygamous or incestuous couples to immigrate as well, since it
will be quite easily to demonstrate the hypocrisy to a court of law.

Alfaris

I think there are biological issues with incestual marriages when it comes to having children, or so we are being told constantly.

However, there is no biological problem with polygamy. A man can father healthy children from different women. And a woman can also bear healthy children from different men.

Also, once you get over the love and commitment controversy, a polygamous union actually has more resources than a regular family - whether it means more than one income, or more than one person to help out around the house.

Alfaris

Alfaris

I am talking strictly about voluntary polygamy and not about inequality. Forcing people into polygamy, whether women or men, is inequality. But allowing people to enter polygamy if they so wish, is not inequality. It is actually called freedom.

I feel that two people that love each other and want to commit to each other should be able to do so, provided that whoever they are already in a relationship with does not object to that. It is a fully consentual action between two adults. I don't see why the immigration system should not respect that union any less than say a homosexual common-law union between people.

Forced polygamy is inequality. Voluntary polygamy between consenting adults is freedom.

Alfaris

Alfaris

Hmm... Interesting.

Actually, there are three kinds of polygamy practiced in Western societies:

1. serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce, and so on any number of times;
2. a man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses;
3. an unmarried man having a number of mistresses one after the other, or several at once.

Some men take the position that monogamy protects the rights of women. But are these men really concerned about the rights of women? The truth of the matter is that monogamy protects men, allowing them to "play around" without responsibility.

Men are the ones protected by monogamy while women continue to be victims of men's desires. Polygamy is very much opposed by the men in the society because it would force men to face up to responsibility and fidelity. It would force them to take responsibility for their polygamous inclinations and would protect and provide for women and children.

In the Muslim societies of our times, polygamy is not frequently practiced, despite legal permission in many countries. It appears that the Western male is very polygamous, getting away with not taking responsibility for the families he should be responsible for.

Alfaris

Ashok

It is interesting , instead of developing ways to eliminate ALL FOUR PRACTICES, it is being proposed to justify one practice, since other 3 differrent forms exist.

Can we prepare a list of TOP WORLD LEADERS/ SCIENTISTS/TECHNOCRATS etc. who came out of polgamous families, since such families are supposed to be giving a great way of living to the loved ones and the young ones.

Alfaris

There is no way to eliminate them. You will not be able to get all the people not to have sex before being married, and to be married only once and to the same person. At least with polygamy, there would be less abandoned mothers and children.

In any case, I am not proposing widescale polygamy in Canada. It simply will not happen. But I do believe that two people that love each other and are dear to each other should be allowed to be reunited through immigration, regardless of whether or not there is another consenting partner or spouse involved.

This is absolutely pointless, because most of the world was polygamous until very recently. All the great philosophers, thinkers, scientists of the past were children of polygamy.

You can even think back to ancient Greeks and Romans. Even though they would take only one official wife, the rich men would have several slave girls to take care of them.

Even later, in Europe's monogamous society - all the wealthy men would have several concubines. Example is Henry VIII of England.

In today's Western society, it is not uncommon for a man to be with about 20 different women before he gets married. Further down the road, he may get divorced and remarried. He may keep one or more mistresses beside his wife.

It is simply hypocritical to condone such behaviour, and at the same time reject loving, honest, committed and consentual unions between more than two people at a time.

Alfaris

Ashok

1) One can always work towards educating the society to limit all four forms of polygamy. I also agree, total elimination will be tough goal

2) I thought you proposed wide scale polygamy, since you linked benefits of polygamy to Canadian security.

How can a few polygamists solve this perceived threat??

3) By simply saying all past researchers / leaders / social reformists were polygamists, does not prove any thing. One has to talk about hard evidence, fact and figures.

Should I believe Newton/Albert Einstein/Lord Kelvin were polygamist. What about Lincoln/Churchill.

As I see Polygamy was practiced by rich influential and now it is dead , just like slavery.

Modern industrial world is further making it extinct, all over the world. I do not see it growing. If you find it growing in any part of the world, than point me towards those pockets, I will like to study their social and economic growth and contribution to the world as sustainable society.

mcjimbo

Your subject sounds like a good title for a new TV show!

I think the Canadian immigration authoritys have every right to specify 1 spouse. Although I recognise an respect other religions, I do not agree with having multiple partners.

Jealousy is part of human nature, and im sure deep down a lot of these wives are not cool with there husband being with and sleeping around with other women. I realise its your culture but I don't like or respect it.

You must respect the laws and background of the country you are immigrating to. I think its niave to think you can just transplant everything about your former life in one country to another!

Ravi

"mcjimbo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
    > Your subject sounds like a good title for a new TV show!
    > I think the
    > Canadian immigration authoritys have every right to specify 1 spouse.
    > Although I recognise an respect other religions, I do not agree with
    > having multiple partners.

So, do the citizens have right to ask for a change if it is logical. This is
not exactly a religious problem.

    > Jealousy is part of human nature, and im

Polygamy is part of human nature. Human being like most animals are by
nature polygamist. Only social and religious rules that made us monogamist.
Study shows that only less than 5% of animals practice monogamy.

    > sure deep down a lot of these wives are not cool with there husband
    > being with and sleeping around with other women. I realise its your
    > culture but I don't like or respect it.

Are you cool and respect the society that allow polygamy outside of
marriage? What mechanism is in place to protect women from men that get away
without taking responsibilities of their child?

    > You must respect the laws and
    > background of the country you are immigrating to.

Nobody is asking for otherwise.

    > I think its niave to
    > think you can just transplant everything about your former life in one
    > country to another!

Why not? Why should always minorities be forced to change their behaviour
and imposed upon the rules that are made only to protect majorities?

--

Ravi

"Allinall" <member7245@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
    > Sorry but regarding
    > social relations, no culture that considers women inferior to men is
    > better or more advanced that a culture that doesn't . It is not about
    > money is about rights and education that allow you to make choices.
    > There is not such a thing like a culture being correct or incorrect, it
    > is either developed or not in certain aspects.

This is a misconception of the naives. Polygamy and treating women
inferiorly are two different issue. The anecdotal evidence that treating
women inequally are mostly seen where polygamy is legalized/practiced does
not mean that they are mutually inclusive. In modern days most families in
so called countries practicing polygamy are not polygamist. Even then they
treat their women inequally. That is due to historical influence of male
domination.

<snip>

    > We have to recognize that equality among
    > men and women is the one of best expressions of developement. Canada
    > can not allow inequality such us Polygamy.

Polygamy does not necessarily equate to male female inequality.

--

Ravi

"Ashok" <member18804@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
    > 1) One can always work towards educating the society to limit all four
    > forms of polygamy. I also agree, total elimination will be tough goal

This discussion is not about encouraging polygamy in the modern world.

    > 2) I thought you proposed wide scale polygamy, since you linked
    > benefits of polygamy to Canadian security.

    > How can a few polygamists
    > solve this perceived threat??

That was not the goal of this discussion. It is immigration related issue
not a social issue. While homosexuals are allowed to be united with their
partners even though majority of provinces in Canada do not approve their
marriage, there is no reason to bar polygamists to be united.

    > 3) By simply saying all past
    > researchers / leaders / social reformists were polygamists, does not
    > prove any thing. One has to talk about hard evidence, fact and
    > figures.

Fact is famous/genius people are not exclusively from only mono/polygamous
family. Wasn't it you who wanted to see the fact whether there are any
genius or famous people came from polygamists' family? Google is your
friend.

    > Should I believe Newton/Albert Einstein/Lord Kelvin were
    > polygamist. What about Lincoln/Churchill.

This is unrelated to the discussion. Finding whether some famous people came
from mono/polygamist family doesn't exactly prove anything.

    > As I see Polygamy was
    > practiced by rich influential and now it is dead , just like slavery.

Polygamy is not dead. All societies, eastern or western, legal or not,
practicing polygamy even in modern day. Polygamy is totally different issue
than slavery and unrelated.

    > Modern industrial world is further making it extinct, all over the
    > world. I do not see it growing.

Contrary to your belief, polygamy is on the rise in the modern industrial
world. In fact, statistics will prove that polygamists rate in those
countries where it is illegal is much higher than those where it is legal.

    > If you find it growing in any part of
    > the world, than point me towards those pockets, I will like to study
    > their social and economic growth and contribution to the world as
    > sustainable society.

You might consider studying social and cultural behaviours of some western
countries.

--

Ashok

1)Go through the complete thread, One of the benefits of polygamy is projected to be safe gaurding of geographical interests of Canada against a perceived Russian threat in the back drop of an assumed US weakening.

2)I am not comparing polygamy with slavery, I am saying as one practice is gone, other is on its way of getting extinct.

3) I do recognise it (polygamy) has shown itself in its newer variants in WEST, I know it will also become extinct, perhaps not in my lifetime.

4)I really do not find sucessfull citizens, claiming with great pride,that they come from such and such polygamist family.What ever amount of time I or you spend googling.

5)I respect Canadian law, at least it allows people to practise their religious beliefs. I find no respect for those countries who pay sack full of US $ without stamping Passport and and do not want to grant citizenship nor allow immigration but want high skilled technocrats from backdoor. In the bargain if Polygamy in its earlier form,is not allowed , i feel very comfortable.

6)Last 15 years I have been quite close to US culture, I find all sucessfull VP's and presidents of the companies were and are monogamists and they really love humanity. some of them adopted illegal childs of the migrant maid servents made pregnent by illegal male migrants!! Did not marry the maid.

7) I am fully aware of western culture, these sucessfull (as I am talking about above ), are those who are retired or on the verge and they do regret, in their run for higher productivity and technological gains, many of them failed giving a direction to young ones. I know it will take decades and decades for a turn around.

6) I know how discussion started and in my very first post, I requested, why do we want to resurrect some thing , which is fading away.

7) We definitely have to talk a lot about what is now surfacing and threatening human development. I appreciate Alfaris for correlating differrent forms of polygamy. But definitely propose to leave the oldest form , behind and start tackling the new variants.

Alfaris

I am not from a culture where polygamy is allowed, and I do not stand behind those cultures. I am not raising this as a cultural issue. I simply pointed out that this "cultural clash" has directed our attention to the fact that some people that love and commit to each other are not allowed to be together under our current immigration laws.

There are no rules or restrictions against polygamy in Canada, or rather there is a century old law, but it has not been enforced for a long time. There was also a law against homosexuality up until the 1960's, I believe. Actual homosexual marriage was not discussed until very recently, and yet homosexual partners have been allowed to be reunited through immigration for a long time now. Similarly, I am not proposing an implementation of polygamous "marriage". I do, however, believe that genuine polygamous partners that love each other and need each other should be able to reunite through immigration.

Currently, if the sponsor is married or was involved with a common-law partner, he/she must first prove that the relationship has broken down before they are allowed to sponsor another common-law partner. However, as I understand it, there are some situations where the current relationship has not broken down and still there is a genuine need to be united with another partner. This is not a common occurrence, but still there are people who feel that way and they feel the same great pain being without that person as we would feel without our loved one.

Although most of us cannot understand homosexual love and how one could want to be with a person of the same sex, we did recognize that it does happen - and therefore we allow homosexual couples to be united through immigration as conjugal and common-law partners. I do not see a valid reason not to grant polygamists the same privilege, since they also experience a real and genuine need to be with their partner and there is also love and commitment involved.

Again, no one goes to jail in Canada for being a homosexual or for living with more than one partner. It is not about local laws or ethics. It is about giving other people the same chance at happiness that the "normal" people receive.

Alfaris

Ravi

"Ashok" <member18804@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
    > 1)Go through the complete thread, One of the benefits of polygamy is
    > projected to be safe gaurding of geographical interests of Canada
    > against a perceived Russian threat in the back drop of an assumed
    > US weakening.

I did follow the whole thread. That point came as a side note from somebody.
That was not the main discussion/goal.

    > 2)I am not comparing polygamy with slavery, I am
    > saying as one practice is gone, other is on its way of getting
    > extinct.

I don't see polygamy is getting extinct.... not in reality.

    > 3) I do recognise it (polygamy) has shown itself in its
    > newer variants in WEST, I know it will also become extinct, perhaps
    > not in my lifetime.

You wish...

    > 4)I really do not find sucessfull citizens,
    > claiming with great pride,that they come from such and such
    > polygamist family.What ever amount of time I or you spend googling.

As modern society look down at polygamy, you definitely won't see people
claiming it publicly/proudly. Like singer Norah Jones... few people knew
that she was daughter of late Ravi Shanker...

    > 5)I respect Canadian law, at least it allows people to practise
    > their religious beliefs. I find no respect for those countries who
    > pay sack full of US $ without stamping Passport and and do not
    > want to grant citizenship nor allow immigration but want high
    > skilled technocrats from backdoor. In the bargain if Polygamy in
    > its earlier form,is not allowed , i feel very comfortable.

???? :>

    > 6)Last
    > 15 years I have been quite close to US culture, I find all
    > sucessfull VP's and presidents of the companies were and are
    > monogamists and they really love humanity. some of them adopted
    > illegal childs of the migrant maid servents made pregnent by
    > illegal male migrants!! Did not marry the maid.

How can you come to any general conclusion based on some limited personal
experience? Or is this any way related to current topic?

    > 7) I am fully
    > aware of western culture, these sucessfull (as I am talking about
    > above ), are those who are retired or on the verge and they do
    > regret, in their run for higher productivity and technological
    > gains, many of them failed giving a direction to young ones. I
    > know it will take decades and decades for a turn around.

???? :>

    > 6)
    > I know how discussion started and in my very first post, I
    > requested, why do we want to resurrect some thing , which is fading
    > away.

If you didn't reply then it would fade itself as well.

    > 7) We definitely have to talk a lot about what is now
    > surfacing and threatening human development. I appreciate Alfaris
    > for correlating differrent forms of polygamy. But definitely
    > propose to leave the oldest form , behind and start tackling the
    > new variants.

That's what the discussion is for...

--

Ashok

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ravi says:I did follow the whole thread. That point came as a side note from somebody. That was not the main discussion/goal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please note it is not >>somebody<<, but it was Mr Alfaris him self (originator of this thread) suggesting great danger to Canada's
security and poly gamy as the answer.

Regarding Pandit Ravi Shanker >>>>

Please note I find no reference to Pandit Ravishankar Ist wife Sukanya and daughter Anoushka + 2nd wife Sue Jones and daughter Norah Jones living together as one happy nuclear polygamist family.

Sue Jones & Ravi Shanker were no more toghether , when Norah was just 4 or 5 year old kid ??. I wonder what sort of gains accrued to Noarah ( as enumerated in this thread).

That is what I want to emphasize. To my best of knowledge , howsoever limited it may be, I have not seen happy go lucky polygamous family in my lifespan >>> till date!!!. History has shown no happy ending to all those who practised it either.

All though I am no legal expert,how ever I do agree , barring few, most other arguements, from Alfaris, sounds convincing. It sounds a rich polygamist can penetrate current immigration system of Canada.

But I do wonder, I think when the big old (polygamist) dies, he leaves quite a big mess, not a legacy. Ofsprings fight for the property , not for the noble prize.

Good luck to polygamists and their efforts to gain IMMIGRATION CANADA.