Steve

Dear Mr. Cohen and Mr. Miller,

You assert that to get points for the education factor just education is not
enough. One must have "……AND a number of years of full-time studies or full-time
equivalent studies".

What about this?

Special circumstances

(4) For the purposes of subsection (2), if a skilled worker has an educational
credential referred to in paragraph (2)(b), subparagraph
(4)(a)(a) or (ii), (d)(i) or (ii) or (e)(i) or (ii) or paragraph
(4)(b), but not the total number of years of full-time or full-time equivalent
studies required by that paragraph or subparagraph, the skilled worker shall be
awarded the same number of points as the number of years of completed full-time
or full-time equivalent studies set out in the paragraph or subparagraph.

Thanks for your comments. Steve

David Cohen

In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] says...
    > Dear Mr. Cohen and Mr. Miller,
    >
    > You assert that to get points for the education factor just education is not
    > enough. One must have "……AND a number of years of full-time studies or full-time
    > equivalent studies".
    >
    > What about this?
    >
    > Special circumstances
    >
    > (4) For the purposes of subsection (2), if a skilled worker has an educational
    > credential referred to in paragraph (2)(b), subparagraph
    > (2)(c)(i) or (ii), (d)(i) or (ii) or (e)(i) or (ii) or paragraph
    > (2)(f), but not the total number of years of full-time or full-time equivalent
    > studies required by that paragraph or subparagraph, the skilled worker shall
    > be awarded the same number of points as the number of years of completed
    > full-time or full-time equivalent studies set out in the paragraph or
    > subparagraph.

This paragraph equates an education credential (I.e., degree or diploma) which does
not have sufficient full-time equivalent years of study with a lower credential for
which the total full time equivalent had been completed.

________
CAMPBELL, COHEN - attorneys at law tel:514.937.9445 / fax:514.937.2618
[email protected] http://canadavisa.com

Online Community: http://canadavisa.com/community

Steve

Mr. Cohen,

Thank you for your comments.

If this is the case would you please clarify how many points an applicant with a
5-year university educational degree at the bachelor's level and total of 15 years of
full-time studies will get.

Unfortunately the Regulations do not specify anything about 5-year university
diplomas at the bachelor's level.

Thank you. Steve

Andrew Miller

20 points.

--

../..

Andrew Miller Immigration Consultant Vancouver, British Columbia email:
millercicanada.com (delete REMOVE and INVALID from the above address before
sending email)
________________________________

"steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Mr. Cohen,
    >
    > Thank you for your comments.
    >
    > If this is the case would you please clarify how many points an applicant with a
    > 5-year university educational degree at the bachelor's level and total of 15 years
    > of full-time studies will get.
    >
    > Unfortunately the Regulations do not specify anything about 5-year university
    > diplomas at the bachelor's level.
    >
    > Thank you. Steve

Steve

Thank you, Mr. Miller. I am aware of your opinion. I am not sure it's correct. There
is no clear indication to that in the Regulations.

Rgds Steve

Andrew Miller

It is absolutely clear in the Regulations -

78(2) A maximum of 25 points shall be awarded for a skilled worker's education
as follows:

(a) 5 points for a secondary school educational credential;

(b) 12 points for a one-year post-secondary educational credential, other than a
university educational credential, and a total of at least 12 years of completed
full-time or fulltime equivalent studies;

(c) 15 points for

(i) a one-year post-secondary educational credential, other than a university
educational credential, and a total of at least 13 years of completed
full-time or full-time equivalent studies, or

(ii) a one-year university educational credential at the bachelor's level and
a total of at least 13 years of completed full-time or full-time
equivalent studies;

(d) 20 points for

(i) a two-year post-secondary educational credential, other than a university
educational credential, and a total of at least 14 years of completed
full-time or full-time equivalent studies, or

(ii) a two-year university educational credential at the bachelor's level and
a total of at least 14 years of completed full-time or full-time
equivalent studies;

(e) 22 points for

(i) a three-year post-secondary educational credential, other than a university
educational credential, and a total of at least 15 years of completed
full-time or full-time equivalent studies, or

(ii) two or more university educational credentials at the bachelor's level and
a total of at least 15 years of completed full-time or full-time equivalent
studies; and

(f) 25 points for a university educational credential at the master's or doctoral
level and a total of at least 17 years of completed full-time or full-time
equivalent studies.

As you can see a Bachelor degree with 15 years of education falls into
78(2)(d)(ii), so 20 points apply here. Can you show us that it may fit into either
78(2)(e)(i) or 78(2)(e)(ii) to get 22 points? I can't see how, sorry.

--

../..

Andrew Miller Immigration Consultant Vancouver, British Columbia email:
millercicanada.com (delete REMOVE and INVALID from the above address before
sending email)
________________________________

"steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Thank you, Mr. Miller. I am aware of your opinion. I am not sure it's correct.
    > There is no clear indication to that in the Regulations.
    >
    > Rgds Steve

levu

No mr Miller it isn't clear at all.


I agree it doesn't fit into any of the 22 point categories. But neither do I think it fits into the d(ii) category you identify.

"(ii) a two-year university educational credential at the bachelor's level and
a total of at least 14 years of completed full-time or full-time
equivalent studies;"

While it does say "at least 14 years" implying 15 years would fit here. It also says clearly that this is a two-year university credential.

It doesn't say 'at least a 2 year'....it says 'a two year'....no more, no less. Therefore I don't think a 3 year credential does fit into this category either.

I agree out of all the categories listed, d(ii) is the most likely one into which a single 3 year degree would fit....but as it presently described, I don't think anyone can say with certainty that this indeed is where it belongs.

Andrew Miller

Please don't be offended but it is a moot argument. You agreed that a single Bachelor
degree doesn't fit into any category with 22 or 25 points as those have been very
clearly defined. There is nothing between d(ii) and e or f categories, so only d(ii)
applies, providing that it is at least 15 years of education program (not years
attended) with at least 2 years Bachelor program within it. Your arguments here (and
anyone else's for that matter) will not change the facts as they are in the
Regulations, sorry.

--

../..

Andrew Miller Immigration Consultant Vancouver, British Columbia email:
millercicanada.com (delete REMOVE and INVALID from the above address before
sending email)
________________________________

"levu" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > No mr Miller it isn't clear at all.
    >
    >
    > I agree it doesn't fit into any of the 22 point categories. But neither do I think
    > it fits into the d(ii) category you identify.
    >
    > "(ii) a two-year university educational credential at the bachelor's level and a
    > total of at least 14 years of completed full-time or full-time equivalent studies;"
    >
    > While it does say "at least 14 years" implying 15 years would fit here. It also
    > says clearly that this is a two-year university credential.
    >
    > It doesn't say 'at least a 2 year'....it says 'a two year'....no more, no less.
    > Therefore I don't think a 3 year credential does fit into this category either.
    >
    > I agree out of all the categories listed, d(ii) is the most likely one into which a
    > single 3 year degree would fit....but as it presently described, I don't think
    > anyone can say with certainty that this indeed is where it belongs.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Steve

Mr. Miller,

Thank you. I appreciate your comments and do respect your opinion.

But there is no indication that it falls into 78(2)(d) either. I can't believe that
immigration considers a five-year university program equal to a two-year program.

If what you assert is true why would they award different points for one-year and
two-year university programs? Is the diference between "one" and "two" bigger than
between "two" and "five"?

I really hope that it's developers' error otherwise it will make frustrated so many
of my fellow citizens.

Ms. Cohen, Berto please share your opinion on that.

Regards Steve

Andrew Miller

Who says that there is no indication that it falls into 78(2)(d)?!!

If 2 years or longer single Bachelor degree meets or exceeds requirements of
78(2)(d) but cannot meet requirements of next level which is 78(2)(e) than obviously
it falls clearly into 78(2)(d) as there is nothing else it can fit into in
between those two. Why it is so hard to comprehend that you need second and
third opinion?!! Both, Berto and David stated already number of times the
same..., what else you expect or hope to hear?!!

What are you trying to argue here? You won't get anything more than 20 points for
single Bachelor degree, period.

--

../..

Andrew Miller Immigration Consultant Vancouver, British Columbia email:
millercicanada.com (delete REMOVE and INVALID from the above address before
sending email)
________________________________

"steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Mr. Miller,
    >
    > Thank you. I appreciate your comments and do respect your opinion.
    >
    > But there is no indication that it falls into 78(2)(d) either. I can't believe that
    > immigration considers a five-year university program equal to a two-year program.
    >
    > If what you assert is true why would they award different points for one-year and
    > two-year university programs? Is the diference between "one" and "two" bigger than
    > between "two" and "five"?
    >
    > I really hope that it's developers' error otherwise it will make frustrated so many
    > of my fellow citizens.
    >
    > Mr. Cohen, Berto please share your opinion on that.
    >
    > Regards Steve

Aluru

Mr. Miller,
I beg to disagree with your last posting which you have repeatedly emphasized. According to a reliable CIC source (even CIC staff currently in training have questioned this), people with a Bachelors degree obtained after three or more years of study and with more than 15 years of completed full-time or full-time equivalent studies will still get 22 points. I only felt the need to point this out.
As I know you're bound to argue with this, all I can say for now is that a statement/clarification to the effect will come out by next week or the week after. So let's all wait and see.

Andrew Miller

We'll have to wait and see....

--

../..

Andrew Miller Immigration Consultant Vancouver, British Columbia email:
millercicanada.com (delete REMOVE and INVALID from the above address before
sending email)
________________________________

"Aluru" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Mr. Miller, I beg to disagree with your last posting which you have repeatedly
    > emphasized. According to a reliable CIC source (even CIC staff currently in
    > training have questioned this), people with a Bachelors degree obtained after
    > three or more years of study and with more than 15 years of completed full-time
    > or full-time equivalent studies will still get 22 points. I only felt the need
    > to point this out. As I know you're bound to argue with this, all I can say for
    > now is that a statement/clarification to the effect will come out by next week
    > or the week after. So let's all wait and see.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Andrew Miller

P.S.

Why are you guys trying to argue with me? I'm just telling you what the law says,
exactly the same thing you hear from other experts in this group. As the law stays
now as published in Canada Gazette there is 20 points for single Bachelor degree
meeting other requirements, period.

If law will be changed or amended in any way as per Aluru's "reliable CIC source"
then it will be a different story, but for now I cannot (nobody can) tell anyone that
single Bachelor degree gets 22 points.

So please, stop arguing as I'm not the one who makes the law - if law changes or CIC
will issue a Memoranda with different interpretation then I will state what it says
after such change.

--

../..

Andrew Miller Immigration Consultant Vancouver, British Columbia email:
millercicanada.com (delete REMOVE and INVALID from the above address before
sending email)
________________________________

"Andrew Miller" <millercitelus.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > We'll have to wait and see....
    >
    > --
    >
    > ../..
    >
    > Andrew Miller Immigration Consultant Vancouver, British Columbia email:
    > millercicanada.com (delete REMOVE and INVALID from the above address before
    > sending email)
    > ________________________________
    >
    >
    >
    > "Aluru" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Mr. Miller, I beg to disagree with your last posting which you have repeatedly
    > > emphasized. According to a reliable CIC source (even CIC staff currently in
    > > training have questioned this), people with a Bachelors degree obtained after
    > > three or more years of study and with more than 15 years of completed
    > > full-time or full-time equivalent studies will still get 22 points. I only
    > > felt the need to point this out. As I know you're bound to argue with this,
    > > all I can say for now is that a statement/clarification to the effect will
    > > come out by next week or the week after. So let's all wait and see.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

levu

Andrew,

Please don't talk so condescendingly. I'm not trying to read more into something than what I see in Black and white and I'm a native english speaker so theres no question that something simply isn't sinking in properly.

I have agreed with you that out of all the categories listed D(ii) would appear to be the one where a single 3+ year degree should go. But its still a round peg in a square hole because the text of the Gazette simply does not say, as you have said that this category is for a degree of "at least 2 years".

It clearly says "A two year" degree. I'm sorry but as far as I know "A two year" program is not the same thing as "A three year", "a four year" or "a 20 year" program.....it is no more and no less than 2. just 2.

I know this sounds picky, but where laws and rules are concerned things should rightly be described without any ambiguity. These categories of education clearly do not fit that bill.

Probably the CIC will award 20 points. But they'll do so based on assumption not fact of law. The regulations are for some reason deliberately unclear as to what points a 3 or more year bachelors degree should get.

I think a 3 year or more single degree will get 20 points. But I think perhaps they made it ambiguous on purpose to allow an officer to make their own interpretation.....the rules as they stand do not define the points awarded for such degrees, they only make an general indication.

Andrew Miller

What really blows my mind is that you are looking for something that simply is not
there. In any rules if one meets or exceeds (even if rule is saying nothing about
exceeding) requirement for level "X" but cannot meet such for the higher level "Y"
than s/he is in level "X". Or when you go to the store to buy let's say a snack bar -
you have $3 but store in this example has a single bars for $2 and a 3-pack for $5.
So, what do you get? You get a single bar for $2 and keep the change - you can't get
a 3-pack and store doesn't have anything is between.

Following your thinking such person couldn't get to any level just because a 3 years
or longer Bachelor degree is simply not specifically (in "black and white" as you
pointed) listed.

--

../..

Andrew Miller Immigration Consultant Vancouver, British Columbia email:
millercicanada.com (delete REMOVE and INVALID from the above address before
sending email)
________________________________

"levu" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Andrew,
    >
    > Please don't talk so condescendingly. I'm not trying to read more into something
    > than what I see in Black and white and I'm a native english speaker so theres no
    > question that something simply isn't sinking in properly.
    >
    > I have agreed with you that out of all the categories listed D(ii) would appear to
    > be the one where a single 3+ year degree should go. But its still a round peg in a
    > square hole because the text of the Gazette simply does not say, as you have said
    > that this category is for a degree of "at least 2 years".
    >
    > It clearly says "A two year" degree. I'm sorry but as far as I know "A two year"
    > program is not the same thing as "A three year", "a four year" or "a 20 year"
    > program.....it is no more and no less than 2. just 2.
    >
    > I know this sounds picky, but where laws and rules are concerned things should
    > rightly be described without any ambiguity. These categories of education clearly
    > do not fit that bill.
    >
    > Probably the CIC will award 20 points. But they'll do so based on assumption not
    > fact of law. The regulations are for some reason deliberately unclear as to what
    > points a 3 or more year bachelors degree should get.
    >
    > I think a 3 year or more single degree will get 20 points. But I think perhaps they
    > made it ambiguous on purpose to allow an officer to make their own
    > interpretation.....the rules as they stand do not define the points awarded for
    > such degrees, they only make an general indication.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com