Bodza Bodza

dingbat wrote:
    > Just came back from Save-On (like Sainsburys) where I also filled up at

OK Here's a comparison (all prices from www.asda.co.uk).
What it looks like is what I've been saying all along: Most things are
about the same, some are cheaper. Overall there's nothing in it.
Canada is NOT hands down cheaper in Groceries.

Bread - 12 grain wholemeal $3.09 £1.19
Bread white polystyrene $1.89 £0.99
Eggs 12 $2.89 £1.19
Orange juice Tropicana 2.84 litres $5.99 (on special!) £3.99
Deodorant $3.49 £0.89
Toothpaste $1.89 £1.75
Bag of spuds 10lbs $5.99 (and they taste like powder) £0.43 per KG
2lbs carrots approx $1.99 £0.39 per KG
10 apples $5.90 (Gala) £0.89 per KG
Punnet strawberries $4.99 £1.47
Two lemons 99c £0.50
Bunch grapes (small) $2.73 £3.48 per KG
Bag onions $1.49 £0.49 per KG
Margarine tub large Imperial $5.99 £0.68 per KG
Butter $1.89 £3.08 per KG
Nappies Size 4 Mega Pack $21.98 (can't find an exact comparison
between £0.15 and £0.20 each)
Washing detergent Tide (2.95litres) $8.99 on special £1.36 per litre
Coke 2 litres $1.29 £1.20
Beans can $1.09 Heinz Baked Beans 415G £0.35
Tuna can 89c on special £0.60
4 litres milk $3.29 1L milk £0.99
8 chicken breasts skinless $14.98 between £7 - £13 per KG
2lb mince x lean $3.78 £2 per KG

George Prager

the data is anecdotal in as much as ten different people will produce
evidence to support ten differing opinions. Every time I travel to the U.K.
on business (about five times a year) I am amazed at how outrageously
expensive everything is (gas, hotels, transit, cars, electronics, film)
Still, I freely concede that my "findings" are personal and anecdotal. Yes,
I do put much more stock in data collected by economists.

I was not being confrontational, just quoting statistics - naturally, you
can take it or leave it. No need to adopt an aggressive tone.

regards,
George

"Bodza Bodza" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "George Prager" wrote:
    > > we can go on and on in circles...
    > >
    > > according to international statistics, the U.K. is approximately 30 -
35%
    > > more expensive on average than Canada
    > So What George? You're talking about "hard data" collected by
    > economists.
    > As if that is a better measure of "how much cheaper are groceries in
    > Canada if at all than elsewhere". It's not.
    > You're comparing an unknown basket of goods to a KNOWN basket of
    > goods.
    > One which you can eyeball and compare and the other, you have to trust
    > "economists". You have no bloody idea what is in the basket of goods
    > so how the hell can you trust it and come and say with such dumb
    > confidence that they're right and our EYES are wrong. They could be
    > measuring price of executive hotels, rental price of BMW, top
    > restaurants, theatre tickets, who knows what.
    > On the contrary, immigrants can compare better by comparing the
    > following list and it's MORE ACCURATE than some dumb-ass meaningless
    > statistic.
    > 1. Average salary paid for their experience and tax home after tax.
    > 2. Price of Rent for a two bedroom apartment
    > 3. Price of cars
    > 4. Price of gasoline per liter
    > 5. Groceries to feed a family e.g. Beef, Chicken, Potatoes, Rice,
    > Vegetables, Fruit, Juice, Milk, Bread etc.
    > 6. Price of telephone charges
    > 7. Cost of electricity per month
    > 8. Cost of gas heating per month.
    > 9. Price of Beer
    > 10. Price of Movie Tickets
    > These are not abitrary and anecdotal my friend. These are HARD DATA
    > which can be used to estimate how much better (or worse) you are in
    > Canada than in another country. If you think otherwise you are thicker
    > than two short ones.

Terry R Brooking

    > What it looks like is what I've been saying all along: Most things are
    > about the same, some are cheaper. Overall there's nothing in it.
    > Canada is NOT hands down cheaper in Groceries.

This argument is a bit of nonsense. You don't buy the same things in a
different country. I know when I went shopping with a local in Vancouver my
shopping bill was considerably less, even though I bought more, because the
locals know what is good value and where to get things for less.

We are perhaps a little unusual, but the things that dominate our budget are
Boat (mooring, fuel), House (mortgage, fuel, maintenance) and car (initial
cost, fuel, insurance). Of these the house fuel and the car insurance is
more expensive, everything else is same or cheaper, in some cases much
cheaper. My friend in Vancouver runs a BMW 750 for similar money that I run
a Ford Focus and gets better service to boot. Certainly, for our lifestyle,
Canada wins on costs.

Regards
-Terry

Bodza Bodza

"George Prager" wrote:
    > the data is anecdotal in as much as ten different people will produce
    > evidence to support ten differing opinions. Every time I travel to the U.K.
    > on business (about five times a year) I am amazed at how outrageously
    > expensive everything is (gas, hotels, transit, cars, electronics, film)
    > Still, I freely concede that my "findings" are personal and anecdotal. Yes,
    > I do put much more stock in data collected by economists.
    >
    > I was not being confrontational, just quoting statistics - naturally, you
    > can take it or leave it. No need to adopt an aggressive tone.

You didn't address the question, however, which was how can you place
more faith in an UNKNOWN basket of goods as a measure of
"expensiveness" than a KNOWN basket of goods.

I repeat, for the purposes of this newsgroup, the basket of goods
included in my last post is BETTER than an UNKNOWN basket of goods.

Bodza Bodza

"Terry R Brooking" wrote:
    > This argument is a bit of nonsense. You don't buy the same things in a
    > different country.

Are you thick or what?

You're saying you don't buy the following:
1. Rent
2. Car payment
3. Fuel
4. Groceries
5. Heating Costs
6. Electricity
7. Car Insurance

    >I know when I went shopping with a local in Vancouver my
    > shopping bill was considerably less, even though I bought more, because the
    > locals know what is good value and where to get things for less.

Really? Look at the list of groceries someone living in Canada posted.
Next drag your eyes to the left and see what the equivalent UK price
is.
THEN try to argue that the prices are considerably less. You can't.

    > We are perhaps a little unusual, but the things that dominate our budget are
    > Boat (mooring, fuel),

This list is about immigration to a new country. Not about boats. What
new immigrant uses a boat? Please.

    >House (mortgage, fuel, maintenance) and car (initial
    > cost, fuel, insurance). Of these the house fuel and the car insurance is
    > more expensive, everything else is same or cheaper, in some cases much
    > cheaper. My friend in Vancouver runs a BMW 750 for similar money that I run
    > a Ford Focus and gets better service to boot. Certainly, for our lifestyle,
    > Canada wins on costs.

But the point is about groceries. The problem is that people here are
trying to argue that Canada is overall better cost of living in
*everything*.
It's quite *obvious* that if you have the SAME salary in London as in
Toronto you are better off in Toronto. The argument also goes that if
you have the SAME salary in Hamilton as in Toronto you are better off
in Hamilton.
But if you compare e.g. Glasgow to Toronto which has approximately the
same salary for the same position you will see that there is nothing
in it.

But to argue that you are *across_the_board* better off is nonsense.
Sure London *RENT* is *more expensive* in absolute monetary terms.
But you *get paid more* to make up for it. 40KGBP in London is the
bare minimum for a family to survive there and $100K in Toronto would
be pretty good money (i.e. you'd have a nicer car and a nicer house)
similarly in Glasgow but guess what? You *wouldn't* be making $100K in
Toronto or 40KGBP in Glasgow. More like 30KGBP or $60K at best.

So you have to compare costs to percentage of salary. So guess what?
If groceries are the same or 20% more in London but you get much more
than what you get paid in Toronto, then surprise, surprise, you are
better off in London.

What really amazes me is the number of people in Canada who stick to
their 1970s beliefs that the UK has a higher cost of living even when
presented with *evidence* to the contrary. There's also another factor
that most people like George Prager are missing. He's *visiting*
London on a *canadian salary*.
If you're only making $50K and you visit London then you will think
that some prices are higher. They probably are in absolute terms
(although not groceries). However if he was *working* in London, he'd
be making 40-50KGBP so as a percentage of salary it would be *the
same*.

What we really have to do to end this debate once and for all because
it is endless is set up a list of things a new immigrant would buy. (I
have done so).
Put at the top the after-tax salary in X country and the equivalent
after-tax salary in T.O. Then we put the prices of the various items
in dollars and other country. Then work out the percentages. If at the
end you are left with a higher percentage of take home in T.O. then
Canada wins. If not, the rah rah rah idiots can all shut up and face
reality.

Bodza Bodza

dingbat wrote:
    > Someone with 5 years solid experience and a degree in marketing in
    > London can expect to earn around 40k sterling - around $85,000. Last
    > weeks Sunday Times had several jobs at this level.

Except that 40K sterling is actually closer to 100K at current exchange rates.

dingbat

Duh? Of course you buy similar things - I am feeding four kids, not lunching in the marina restaurant! This is part of my regular weekly shop - and after seven years I know where the bargains are. I do go to Farmer's markets when I can, but they tend to be shut when I get the time between work and schoolk to do the shopping. Your lifestyle is way up there compared to mine. Boats? Oh do behave, I can barely afford a car on what I earn, let alone a rich mans toy. I earn HALF what I earned in England, which to me obviously means the equivalent priced groceries take more of my wages. It's not rocket science.

Terry R Brooking

    > Are you thick or what?

Now now... I guess living in UK does tend to make your brain turn to jello!
    :-)

For us, Canada is cheaper...no arguments.

--
Regards
-Terry

Bodza Bodza

"Terry R Brooking" wrote:
    > > Are you thick or what?
    >
    > Now now... I guess living in UK does tend to make your brain turn to jello!
    > :-)
    >
    > For us, Canada is cheaper...no arguments.

Well if you won't argue I'm forced to call you names...

OK fine terry, whatever you like. There're a few like me who are
surprised to find that things aren't as cheap as we expected given
that all the old timers (jag driving old farts?) like you repeat the
same tired old saw even when faced with the evidence. I remember
dragging aunt into safeway over here and showing her the prices. When
presented with evidence her eyes seemed to glaze over and then she
said "well yes, but canada is still cheaper".
OK then....

PS Don't take the name calling seriously unless you have no sense of
humour.

jeannie

YOU NEED TO GO TO WAL-MART FOR SOME OF THAT STUFF !!!!!!!!!!!!!

jeannie

Ding bat I have a boat bring up the kids in the summer, with 4 kids you need a break !!!!!!

I live in the Okanagan. boat on shuswap lake!!!!!!

dingbat

You never know I might be up that way next summer! Thanks for the lovely offer, do I ever need a break. Still, I wouldn't swap the little blighters for all the tea in China. Oops..possibly not pc that....

stupot

Isn't everything relative???????
What you get given in one hand gets taken away in the other.
Its all swings and roundabouts.
Its the quality of life that counts, isn't it?