Am

Back in 1995, it was dead easy to get PR visa. My application took only 4
months to process, I was sent some papers to have a medical (which I had on
my lunch break!) and, a week later, my visa papers arrived. No interview, no
need for work references or language tests...

I landed in Calgary in 1996 and was shocked to find there were so few jobs.
Some people hadn't found a job in 5 years and many others were doing menial
work or struggling with an unproductive 'cottage industry' to make ends
meet. There was a lot in the papers about people going back to Hong Kong
due to the lack of prospects in Canada despite the imminent Chinese
takeover.

A lot of books were sold about 'the new economy without jobs'. I still have
my copies of 'Vanishing Jobs' and 'Jobshift' that talked about the
disappearance of employment as we knew it. There were even more books about
writing a CV, networking, etc. Just no jobs to apply for because, according
to such books, 80% of jobs were not advertised or filled thru agencies, you
were supposed to work full time dropping off CVs and cold-calling in the
hope of unearthing one of those 'hidden vacancies'.

It was a big shock & I returned to England thinking I'd never find a job
again but, to my surprise, I got off the plane on Thursday, went to an
agency on Fri, started working on Mon. Then found out my old job was still
vacant 9 months after I left. I was temping with Citibank & they wanted me
to stay longer. Everybody was dying to offer me a job! These days I work
as a Graphic Designer with a major bank in the City without ever having
studied a single design course, I just went there as a PowerPoint operator,
convinced them that I could do graphics and voila! In Calgary I met
graduate Graphic Designers who had been working as PowerPoint operators for
7 years!

Canada has tightened its immigration policy increasing the pass mark and
adding a lot of paperwork to the process, presumably to select those
candidates with better chances of employment, but are they doing the right
thing? A lot of importance is attached to education, (5 points for high
school vs. 22 for a degree) even though work experience is often more
relevant than academic qualifications. It may well be easier to find a job
if you're a qualified lawyer or physician but if you did Fine Art or English
Literature your chances of finding a job in those areas are slim, yet all
degrees are given the same weight under the points system.

Language ability is undoubtedly important but there are few places where the
2 official languages are used in day to day business. With the excecption
of Quebec, most of the country is English speaking and I wonder how many
people in Vancouver, Calgary, or even Toronto, speak fluent French. It's
almost ironic that French-speaking Quebec requires only 'conversational
french' whilst 'Federal' applicants (presumably intending to settle in
English-speaking provinces) are required to take French language tests.

Many applicants seem to be studying French just to increase their scores
even though their employment prospects could benefit much more from a
vocational qualification, as there were quite a few jobs for skilled
technicians, machine operators, etc. that required training and work
experience rather than academic degrees or knowledge of French.

Maybe the authorities that make immigration policy should be getting out
more, buying more newspapers, and asking around to find out what really
increases 'employability' in Canada...




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Bodza Bodza

"AM" wrote:

    > Back in 1995, it was dead easy to get PR visa. My application took only 4
    > months to process, I was sent some papers to have a medical (which I had on
    > my lunch break!) and, a week later, my visa papers arrived. No interview, no
    > need for work references or language tests...

Same for me.

    > I landed in Calgary in 1996 and was shocked to find there were so few jobs.

It was the same in Toronto in 1994. But I stuck it out because Glasgow
was worse. London could have been better but I already tried London in
1990 and I didn't like it very much. By the time I got to 1996 I was
able to get a decent job no problem. From 1996 to 2001 I was making
*excellent* money till the boom turned to bust. I didn't prepare for
the bust even though I suspected it was coming since 1999, my mistake.
My personal reckoning is that Toronto, much like London itself *is* a
boom and bust type of town. Since I stuck it out long enough I took
out the insurance of becoming a Canadian citizen so I can go back when
I want. When I get my finances straightened out I'll be doing so.

    > Some people hadn't found a job in 5 years and many others were doing menial
    > work or struggling with an unproductive 'cottage industry' to make ends
    > meet. There was a lot in the papers about people going back to Hong Kong
    > due to the lack of prospects in Canada despite the imminent Chinese
    > takeover.

You're right, but a large amount of this comes down to planning and
another part is plain bad luck. You shouldn't go unless you can hack
it for at least 4 years. Easy to say though, since most times your
papers arrive suddenly and you have at most a year to go. But again it
comes down to planning. I didn't give it much thought back then
because I was young free and single and had nothing to lose. Now I
have a wife and two small sons. It's a different ballgame. I will be
going back prepared the next time.

    > A lot of books were sold about 'the new economy without jobs'. I still have
    > my copies of 'Vanishing Jobs' and 'Jobshift' that talked about the
    > disappearance of employment as we knew it. There were even more books about
    > writing a CV, networking, etc. Just no jobs to apply for because, according
    > to such books, 80% of jobs were not advertised or filled thru agencies, you
    > were supposed to work full time dropping off CVs and cold-calling in the
    > hope of unearthing one of those 'hidden vacancies'.

I worked commission only as a headhunter. It was not easy but I
managed to survive between 1994 and 1996 on some $30,000 a year. If my
wife was also doing something similar I am quite sure we could survive
till something better turns up.

    > It was a big shock & I returned to England thinking I'd never find a job
    > again but, to my surprise, I got off the plane on Thursday, went to an
    > agency on Fri, started working on Mon.

London seems to always have been like that. When I went to London in
1990 (in the midst of the recession) I found work immediately also.
London has a wider and deeper job market plain and simple. Even now in
the midst of the I.T. recession world-wide there are *tons* of jobs in
London compared with Toronto.
In the good times in Toronto (1996-2001) it took me on average six
weeks to find work without trying too hard. On another note, I thought
it was going to take six months to get a job in Glasgow when I came
back in 2001, but it took only a month. Quite honestly, I think that a
lot of people don't really know how to look for work. Sending your
resume out to agencies *isn't* the same as looking for work, it's
letting *other people* look for work *for you*. And they're not even
looking for work for *you* they're trying to find the closest fit to a
company's requirements so they get their commission. Not the same
thing at all.


    > In Calgary I met
    > graduate Graphic Designers who had been working as PowerPoint operators for
    > 7 years!

You're not comparing like to like. Calgary is MUCH smaller than
London. You should be comparing London to New York. Even comparing
London to Toronto is not a valid comparison. Calgary can be compared
to a smaller city like Glasgow. Quite honestly I don't think I have
even heard of a Graphic Design company in Glasgow.

    > It may well be easier to find a job
    > if you're a qualified lawyer or physician but if you did Fine Art or English
    > Literature your chances of finding a job in those areas are slim, yet all
    > degrees are given the same weight under the points system.

The government will always be behind the times because it takes time
for reports to be prepared. For instance, they still have the software
pilot quite immigration program in place even though there is a *glut*
of software engineers *not* a shortage. It is virtually impossible for
the government to keep on top of things and I think they have thus
opted for the second-best approach (i.e. if they have a degree they
must be smart and *should* be able to survive in today's world). It is
a *fact* that many more Canadians who have degrees have jobs than
those who have only high school diplomas. I guess they are assuming
the same thing will be true of immigrants. I also couldn't help but
notice that when I was a headhunter, very many of the companies I
talked to were owned by *very* credentialled (e.g. PHD) foreigners, so
obviously education has some effect on your ability to succeed in
Canada.

    > Language ability is undoubtedly important but there are few places where the
    > 2 official languages are used in day to day business.

Government. And since government is 40%+ of the economy...

    > Many applicants seem to be studying French just to increase their scores
    > even though their employment prospects could benefit much more from a
    > vocational qualification, as there were quite a few jobs for skilled
    > technicians, machine operators, etc. that required training and work
    > experience rather than academic degrees or knowledge of French.

This is quite a valid point although it is *also* a valid point that
if you have *just* an academic degree *and* fluent French and English
you could *easily* get a call centre job paying $30-$40K. Not much,
but enough to support half a family.

    > Maybe the authorities that make immigration policy should be getting out
    > more, buying more newspapers, and asking around to find out what really
    > increases 'employability' in Canada...

Nah, it's not their job. Canada makes tons of money off of immigrants
and you should bear in mind that Canada is VERY generous in giving
PERMANENT RESIDENCE to new immigrants for what is in reality quite an
easy set of requirements.
Other immigrant accepting countries such as the USA and the UK have
much more strict requirements to get permanent residence such as
having to get a work permit for x number of years first. I think
Canada is very generous and I am grateful that Canada gave me the
opportunity to become Canadian. I bash Canada a lot, but that is one
thing I will not bash: Canada is generous to it's immigrants. If they
want to charge $1500 for what is effectively a one-shot opportunity to
try to make it in a rich country, I think that is a wonderful gift.
Once you get there, it is up to you to make it.

Idesigner

Very good points mentioned here. Gives a lot to chew on for
prospective immigrants such as myself. I agree - why place so much
stress on education and language factors, yet when you get to Canada,
they really just want you to do the jobs Canadian themselves don't
want to do i.e. menial, blue-collar jobs for very educated immigrants.

Jim Humphries

Of course that is a false statement. No one "wants" highly skilled
immigrants to take menial jobs. It happens that way to some and they post
heir unhappy experience here. You have to find your own job with only the
least assistance. Scouting ahead helps a lot. So does thinking positively.
--
Jim Humphries, former visa officer
"IDesigner" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Very good points mentioned here. Gives a lot to chew on for
    > prospective immigrants such as myself. I agree - why place so much
    > stress on education and language factors, yet when you get to Canada,
    > they really just want you to do the jobs Canadian themselves don't
    > want to do i.e. menial, blue-collar jobs for very educated immigrants.

Am

    > You're right, but a large amount of this comes down to planning and
    > another part is plain bad luck. You shouldn't go unless you can hack
    > it for at least 4 years. Easy to say though, since most times your
    > papers arrive suddenly and you have at most a year to go.

Same here, I was expecting a long process and it only took 4 months & I had
only a year to use my visa. I landed only a few days before it was due to
expire.

Quite honestly, I think that a lot of people don't really know how to look
for work. Sending your
    > resume out to agencies *isn't* the same as looking for work, it's
    > letting *other people* look for work *for you*. And they're not even
    > looking for work for *you* they're trying to find the closest fit to a
    > company's requirements so they get their commission. Not the same
    > thing at all.

Agencies are THE way to find work in London, especially so in the City,
where ALL operations & support positions are handled thru agencies, from IT
to secretarial, clerical, banking operations, etc. the institutions do not
deal directly with individuals. If s/one I know tells me there's a vacancy
in another bank I still have to find one of the agencies they deal with and
go thru them, I can't just approach them directly.

    > You're not comparing like to like. Calgary is MUCH smaller than
    > London. You should be comparing London to New York. Even comparing
    > London to Toronto is not a valid comparison. Calgary can be compared
    > to a smaller city like Glasgow. Quite honestly I don't think I have
    > even heard of a Graphic Design company in Glasgow.

It's not a matter of size. There's Graphic Design jobs in much smaller
places (like Tunbridge Wells, pop. circa 75k). But I wasn't looking for
that kind of job in Calgary (which, as an oil & gas town, wouldn't have much
use for 'commercial design'). I was looking for office jobs in general, I
had a lot of skills to offer (admin, databases, wordprocessing,
presentations, spreadsheets, accounting, etc.) & got top marks on all the
agency tests. But most of the vacancies were just for receptionists in
places like contractors' offices or warehouses, many in God forsaken
industrial estates. I often left the interviews hoping not to get the
job...

It is a *fact* that many more Canadians who have degrees have jobs than
    > those who have only high school diplomas. I guess they are assuming
    > the same thing will be true of immigrants. I also couldn't help but
    > notice that when I was a headhunter, very many of the companies I
    > talked to were owned by *very* credentialled (e.g. PHD) foreigners, so
    > obviously education has some effect on your ability to succeed in
    > Canada.

...and everywhere else... BUT a degree isn't everything and some degrees
make people much more employable than others...

    > Government. And since government is 40%+ of the economy...

I was amazed to see the amount of government offices in Canada... I think
the Government is almost the sole employer in many of the smallish towns and
in the North...

    > This is quite a valid point although it is *also* a valid point that
    > if you have *just* an academic degree *and* fluent French and English
    > you could *easily* get a call centre job paying $30-$40K. Not much,
    > but enough to support half a family.

You don't need a degree for a call centre job...

    > Nah, it's not their job. Canada makes tons of money off of immigrants
    > and you should bear in mind that Canada is VERY generous in giving
    > PERMANENT RESIDENCE to new immigrants for what is in reality quite an
    > easy set of requirements.

I still think they had the right idea with the occupations list and
assigning more points to certain occupations according to demand, only the
list wasn't in touch with reality, there were things like 'crossword puzzle
maker' in it... I wonder how many jobs you could get with that sort of
experience...

    > Other immigrant accepting countries such as the USA and the UK have
    > much more strict requirements to get permanent residence

The UK is a small overcrowded island unlike Canada, which is mostly
unpopulated. The USA has this weird idea of giving Green Cards by lottery
rather than merit... I don't understand the principle behind that!

I bash Canada a lot, but that is one thing I will not bash: Canada is
generous to it's immigrants. If they
    > want to charge $1500 for what is effectively a one-shot opportunity to
    > try to make it in a rich country, I think that is a wonderful gift.
    > Once you get there, it is up to you to make it.

Living in Canada is much more attractive for those who live in developing
countries. I don't mind the $1,500, in fact I don't think it cost me that
much and that's less than 2 weeks salary in London BUT it may well be a lot
for people who live & work in India, Russia or the Philippines...

Calgary was full of immigrants from such places who, despite being
professionals with experience & qualifications, were happy to accept low
salaries and take whatever jobs were available because they were still
better off... A couple of Russian programmers said they made $50/month in
Russia & a Filippino engineer thought $1,000 CDN was a good salary...




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Bodza Bodza

"AM" wrote:

    > Agencies are THE way to find work in London

I know but Toronto or Calgary are not London.

    > It's not a matter of size.

Yes it is. London's sheer size means that the job market is wider and
deeper plain and simple. Moreover, I bet that good jobs in London
would get flooded by CVs if they advertised in the newspapers, which
is *why* they go through agencies. Not to mention the old-boy-network.

    > But most of the vacancies were just for receptionists in
    > places like contractors' offices or warehouses, many in God forsaken
    > industrial estates. I often left the interviews hoping not to get the
    > job...

Ah, so that's the point then: You weren't hungry enough to want to
stay.
If you come from a higher-tier city like London then you can get an
excellent job easier than in a lesser-tier city. London was (is) a
pretty good place to get a job even in the worst of times. Other
places are not so lucky. Even in the best of times, Glasgow is shite.
That's the reason I stuck it out. I'm here right now and it's *still*
shite, but I have a decent job and the cost of living is lower in
Glasgow than in Toronto (mainly due to the fact that I don't *need* a
car) so I'm waiting it out to sort out my finances before I go back.
Even if it takes me a year or two to get back on my feet out there I
don't care. Just the weather alone makes it worth living out there.

    > I was amazed to see the amount of government offices in Canada... I think
    > the Government is almost the sole employer in many of the smallish towns and
    > in the North...

This *is* true. You should see places like North Bay.

    > You don't need a degree for a call centre job...

No you don't, but if you have one you will beat the others out.

    > I still think they had the right idea with the occupations list and
    > assigning more points to certain occupations according to demand, only the
    > list wasn't in touch with reality, there were things like 'crossword puzzle
    > maker' in it... I wonder how many jobs you could get with that sort of
    > experience...

This is partly true, but the boom-and-bust type jobs change more
readily.
I think jobs like "cabinet-maker" change much less in terms of demand
than programmer. I think also right now there is a big problem in that
there are an artificially high number of applicants from the I.T.
industry thanks in no small part to the H1B hordes who all they want
to do is stay in North America.
Competition is *fierce* and this benefits the bosses no end. I think
another poster had the right idea about starting a consultancy.

    > The UK is a small overcrowded island unlike Canada, which is mostly
    > unpopulated. The USA has this weird idea of giving Green Cards by lottery
    > rather than merit... I don't understand the principle behind that!

It is a "diversity" lottery based on the idea that they (the USA) get
tons of immigrants from e.g. Canada, Britain, Mexico, China, India and
some others and want to make the mix more diverse. Of course, there is
some political motivation in giving out 40% of these visas to Irish
applicants...

    > Living in Canada is much more attractive for those who live in developing
    > countries.

There's no question. It is also attractive for those from first world
countries but *only* if they don't have to drop their standard of
living too much. (Which is why a lot of people complain).

    > Calgary was full of immigrants from such places who, despite being
    > professionals with experience & qualifications, were happy to accept low
    > salaries and take whatever jobs were available because they were still
    > better off... A couple of Russian programmers said they made $50/month in
    > Russia & a Filippino engineer thought $1,000 CDN was a good salary...

When they get a job, they will change their mind after a couple of
years about what is a good salary and what is not. But in any case you
are right. Toronto is full of doctors driving taxis.

Patrick

Bodza Bodza wrote:
    > "AM" wrote:
    >> Agencies are THE way to find work in London
    > I know but Toronto or Calgary are not London.


That is a point that is going to take some adjusting to! You get so
indoctrinated in London that you have to go via an agency for every job,
that you forget that other places do not necessarily have the same
requirements. It's a different skill-set when it comes to job hunting, I
suppose.


--
Patrick Mullin,
MCSD (VB6).

Email at AuroraDigitalis dot com

Bodza Bodza

[email protected] (IDesigner) wrote:
    > Very good points mentioned here. Gives a lot to chew on for
    > prospective immigrants such as myself. I agree - why place so much
    > stress on education and language factors, yet when you get to Canada,
    > they really just want you to do the jobs Canadian themselves don't
    > want to do i.e. menial, blue-collar jobs for very educated immigrants.

That's a stupid thing to say. Canada wants to solve three problems:
One, it wants to increase it's demographic base due to poor
reproduction rates among the Canadian born (so it needs immigrants).
Two, it wants immigrants to contribute to the economy and thus create
jobs for Canadians and generate tax revenue (in this case any job will
do, thus immigrants are granted residence instead of just a work visa
for one single job and company). Three, it *has* critical shortages of
particular skills so it would *prefer* that these shortages are met.

You are focussing on only the third part of the equation:
I would suggest that the first two are more important than the last
i.e. increasing the population via immigration, and that the immigrant
finds some sort of work. It is preferred that the immigrant finds work
in his/her field but if not, oh well.

Canada has given immigrants *PERMANENT RESIDENCE*. This is a wonderful
gift that most other immigrant accepting countries do not give. After
three years you can apply for citizenship. In the USA and Britain you
first have to obtain a work permit before being able to apply for
permanent residence.

And another thing, why should immigrants have it so easy? I am a
Canadian citizen. Should I *demand* to find a job in my own field when
I return to Canada? I don't think so and I have no illusions. There is
a strong likelihood that I will have to retrain and do something else.
No Canadian citizen is given special treatment to get their dream jobs
and neither are immigrants. You have to work for it.

Bodza Bodza

"Jim Humphries" wrote:

    > Of course that is a false statement. No one "wants" highly skilled
    > immigrants to take menial jobs. It happens that way to some and they post
    > heir unhappy experience here. You have to find your own job with only the
    > least assistance. Scouting ahead helps a lot. So does thinking positively.

That's 100% right. It is not just as simple as handing in a resume to
an agency. In my opinion if this is all you do, you haven't even tried
looking for a job. What you should do if you're from the UK is talk to
some people outside of London in the worse-off parts e.g. Liverpool,
Glasgow, Newcastle.
Ask them how they found jobs. You might be surprised at some of the
answers you get.

Canada is on a different continent and think seriously about what it
is you are doing: You are effectively resigning from your job and
moving to another city where you don't know how things work and you
will be living off of your savings till you *find* work.
If you're only doing it for a laugh and you're not really that serious
you should consider what it is you are doing and the first step should
be "Waitaminnit, I'm *resigning* from my job with *no* new one".

Think before you leap, and *prepare*.
If you prepare it will be easy. If not it could be brutal.

Chris

You sound different now than couple of months ago when we had that "hot" but
stupid "war of words"! I did not know that you are Canadian citizen
(naturalized like myself), you did not say it at the very beginning, so I
thought that you are a newcomer who did not like it here and just runaway
back home. My apologizes for my remarks.
I agree with you entirely, except, partially, with the first "amendment",
the demographic factor. Based on their place of settlement, immigrants are
coming only to Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, there is NO shortage of
skilled workers in these places (except as truck drivers, 18-wheeler, maybe
not such skilled but you can make lots of money, up to $80,000/year). Yes,
there is a continuos shortage in places like McDonalds, Burger King, KFC,
Wal-Mart, No-Frills, Petro-Canada/Esso/Shell/Canadian Tire gas stations,
etc., and in these places you hardly see (I can say only a miracle will do
it) a white person. Therefore, these people will never create jobs for other
Canadians, they will just help companies (and Burger King is a company,
right?) have enough manpower to survive and make a profit (and pay their
yearly "respect" to Uncle Sam, Uncle Sam LOVES their "respect"!!!). And at
this moment there is a large overload of immigrants ready every minute to
work for $7/h. That is why, in my personal view, Canada needs immigrants
right now. And no European (East or West) will come here to fill-up other
people's cars, serve burgers or clean a warehouse. Who is willing to do
this?, that 58% of the 1991-2001 Census (proudly not me...)
Chris

"Bodza Bodza" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (IDesigner) wrote:
    > > Very good points mentioned here. Gives a lot to chew on for
    > > prospective immigrants such as myself. I agree - why place so much
    > > stress on education and language factors, yet when you get to Canada,
    > > they really just want you to do the jobs Canadian themselves don't
    > > want to do i.e. menial, blue-collar jobs for very educated immigrants.
    > That's a stupid thing to say. Canada wants to solve three problems:
    > One, it wants to increase it's demographic base due to poor
    > reproduction rates among the Canadian born (so it needs immigrants).
    > Two, it wants immigrants to contribute to the economy and thus create
    > jobs for Canadians and generate tax revenue (in this case any job will
    > do, thus immigrants are granted residence instead of just a work visa
    > for one single job and company). Three, it *has* critical shortages of
    > particular skills so it would *prefer* that these shortages are met.
    > You are focussing on only the third part of the equation:
    > I would suggest that the first two are more important than the last
    > i.e. increasing the population via immigration, and that the immigrant
    > finds some sort of work. It is preferred that the immigrant finds work
    > in his/her field but if not, oh well.
    > Canada has given immigrants *PERMANENT RESIDENCE*. This is a wonderful
    > gift that most other immigrant accepting countries do not give. After
    > three years you can apply for citizenship. In the USA and Britain you
    > first have to obtain a work permit before being able to apply for
    > permanent residence.
    > And another thing, why should immigrants have it so easy? I am a
    > Canadian citizen. Should I *demand* to find a job in my own field when
    > I return to Canada? I don't think so and I have no illusions. There is
    > a strong likelihood that I will have to retrain and do something else.
    > No Canadian citizen is given special treatment to get their dream jobs
    > and neither are immigrants. You have to work for it.

Bodza Bodza

"Chris" wrote:
    > My apologizes for my remarks.

No offense taken. I enjoy a good argument now and then.

    > I agree with you entirely, except, partially, with the first "amendment",
    > the demographic factor. Based on their place of settlement, immigrants are
    > coming only to Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, there is NO shortage of
    > skilled workers in these places

I agree, immigrants are not heading out to the smaller cities. But
then again, there is a net draw from the smaller cities to the bigger
cities even among Canadians. A lot of people I worked with were from
places like North Bay, Deep River, Souix St. Marie, Thunder Bay etc
who had come to the big city looking for work.

    > And no European (East or West) will come here to fill-up other
    > people's cars, serve burgers or clean a warehouse. Who is willing to do
    > this?, that 58% of the 1991-2001 Census (proudly not me...)

I would have no problem doing any of these things short term if I
could pay the bills by doing them.